Sunday Repairs

[frizbeedog]

1352

Do you save old parts from service changes you have done?

1353

Today they came in handy. :smile:

The customer was able to send me a photo with his camera phone of the damage to his meter base and I was able to match the part with the ones I have a habit of salvaging from service changes. I called him up after he sent me the photo and told him that today was his lucky day. Good thing too, as this was a flush mount installation and the last me or him wanted to do was tear open his wall on a Sunday afternoon.

When I showed up with the exact part he nearly crapped his pants from happiness. And I was a hero for a day.

Save old parts. You just never know. :grin: :grin: :grin:

[mdshunk]

What brand is that meter pan, consequently?

[emahler]

out of curiosity...what was your total bill to him?:D

[frizbeedog]

What brand is that meter pan, consequently?

Never could dertermine that. Not listed on iside that I could find and the outside cover had much paint. The jaw part number was an exact match. I have some others I could check later. 20 year old house.

[mdshunk]

Never could dertermine that. Not listed on iside that I could find and the outside cover had much paint. The jaw part number was an exact match. I have some others I could check later. 20 year old house.
The only reason I asked is because many of those meter jaw assemblies (aka "40 block") are interchangable among brands. That looks like an old Arrow meter pan, if you made me guess.

I save junk for emergency repairs, but only cherry stuff. Whether they realize it or not, they pay dear for it too. If I have to put in a replacement jaw assembly, they're paying the price of a new meter can for that part.

[macmikeman]

The other day I did a 200 upgrade to a house. I really got tempted to keep the old Sq-D 100 main from the old can that is obsolete. The kind with a really big handle, line and load lugs. But then I thought about what might happen if I sell it to somebody else, and it fails to do its job when its supposed to. Better to just sell the next guy a whole new meter/main socket also.

[iwire]

I do not repair items like that, I install new.

As far as I know the company I work for makes more money when I do more. :smile:

[frizbeedog]

out of curiosity...what was your total bill to him?:D

3.75 hours door to door.

Roughly $450.00 with a permit. Power Co. needed one for emergency reconnect. They had taken the meter cause it was cooked.

[mdshunk]

I do not repair items like that, I install new.
I'm a little picky when I do fix stuff with salvaged hardware. Usually middle of the night on a Sunday night is a good reason to make me do it. Through the week, they're getting new stuff. At other times, pieces and parts can make a decent enough temporary repair until real repairs can be scheduled and replacement parts secured, as long as the temporary repair can be accomplished with some degree of safety.

[frizbeedog]

I do not repair items like that, I install new.

As far as I know the company I work for makes more money when I do more. :smile:

I would love to as well, but for a Sunday and no power and no well water, they were pleased as punch. And the referals you get from a repair like that will pay off in the long run. Weird as this may sound, If you can save someone some money...

[brian john]

We always install new...BUT on a Sunday I can be the king of GET THEM back on line till the first of the week.

[frizbeedog]

I save junk for emergency repairs, but only cherry stuff. Whether they realize it or not, they pay dear for it too. If I have to put in a replacement jaw assembly, they're paying the price of a new meter can for that part.

The part was in great shape and I should charge more for it. After all, where are they gonna find it if not from me. Of couse I cannot warranty the part and the homeowner knows this. He's just happy he didn't have to go for a full blown service change.

[frizbeedog]

We always install new...BUT on a Sunday I can be the king of GET THEM back on line till the fisrt of the week.

He's back on line, and perhaps for another twenty years. :smile:

[iwire]

as long as the temporary repair can be accomplished with some degree of safety.

I agree but I did not get the impression this was a temp fix.

I would love to as well, but for a Sunday and no power and no well water, they were pleased as punch. And the referals you get from a repair like that will pay off in the long run. Weird as this may sound, If you can save someone some money...

Whatever I do we are required by the state to provide a 1 year warranty on, based on that alone I would go with new equipment. As far as the referrals you could still get them regardless of how you make the repair.

You showed up on a Sunday and took care of it. :)

[emahler]

3.75 hours door to door.

Roughly $450.00 with a permit. Power Co. needed one for emergency reconnect. They had taken the meter cause it was cooked.

if it lasts till he sells the house, you gave him one heck of a deal, and short changed yourself a lot...if it goes out in 6 months and he makes you replace it on your dime (or has someone else do it, and tells everyone he knows how bad you are) then you lost even more and he'll feel you overcharged him...

i'm with Brian John...got you running today, we'll be back tomorrow to replace it...

[frizbeedog]

Whatever I do we are required by the state to provide a 1 year warranty on, based on that alone I would go with new equipment.

Interesting. I'll check into that. I'm confident it will make it past one year. :)

Good tip. Thanks.

[frizbeedog]

you gave him one heck of a deal, and short changed yourself a lot...

Perhaps. But the cold beer in my fidge now has my full attention. :grin: :grin: :grin:

[dSilanskas]

Whatever I do we are required by the state to provide a 1 year warranty on, based on that alone I would go with new equipment. As far as the referrals you could still get them regardless of how you make the repair.

I have not heard of this Iwire interesting

[mdshunk]

In reality used equipment has been around ever since new equipment has been sold. It’s simply part of the process and offers significant benefits in the right situations. Listen to David Rosenfield, President of ROMAC and one of the founders of Professional Electrical Apparatus Recyclers League explain how to take advantage of this opportunity while avoiding the risks.

Listen Now (http://www.pearl1.org/PEARLradio/index.htm)

[emahler]

i didn't listen, but there is a difference between certified/tested used equipment and sitting in the shop and lets make it work equipment...

in this particular case, and i am not trying to bag on frisbee by any means, what if the jaw is just a little loose? 6 months from now it burns up again?

if it's a certified/tested piece of used equipment, or new equipment, you can go back to whomever you got it from...they have E&O insurance should it be required....

do you, as an EC carry insurance to cover your behind? will your standard contractors insurance cover it? it might, i don't know for sure, but it's something to keep in mind...

unfortunately, attorneys have changed the EC industry from "make it work safely" to "cover your arse....oh yeah, if you can make it work, that's a bonus"

[220/221]

I "repair" things like that in a pinch.

I always note "temp repair" on the invoice and quote for a new service.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

if it lasts till he sells the house, you gave him one heck of a deal, and short changed yourself a lot...if it goes out in 6 months and he makes you replace it on your dime (or has someone else do it, and tells everyone he knows how bad you are) then you lost even more and he'll feel you overcharged him...

i'm with Brian John...got you running today, we'll be back tomorrow to replace it...


So much for the miracle of interchangable parts. When you replace a cooked receptacle, do you also replace the box & circuit with new?

I've long held the belief that modern techniques and time saving innovations, computers, all of the benefits that mankind has invented over the decades has actually accomplished the opposite of what they were invisioned and promoted for. You are living proof of this.

Americans are now working harder, longer and for less reward than ever before.

[frizbeedog]

in this particular case, and i am not trying to bag on frisbee by any means, what if the jaw is just a little loose? 6 months from now it burns up again?

I make it a point only to save and use the best parts in cherry condition.

Which leads me to another thought. Used circuit breakers.

There is a company here that takes old circuit breakers and bench tests them for re-sale. What are your thoughts on that.

FPE and Zinsco I will not pull from a box or from the bottom of the breaker pile for installation unless I get them new or from this company.

http://www.oregonbreakers.com/

[emahler]

I "repair" things like that in a pinch.

I always note "temp repair" on the invoice and quote for a new service.

you have to these days...

[emahler]

I make it a point only to save and use the best parts in cherry condition.

Which leads me to another thought. Used circuit breakers.

There is a company here that takes old circuit breakers and bench tests them for re-sale. What are your thoughts on that.

FPE and Zinsco I will not pull from a box or from the bottom of the breaker pile for installation unless I get them new or from this company.

http://www.oregonbreakers.com/

i think it's great...they test them and certify them...it transfers your liability to them...

had you been able to buy the jaw new, go ahead and replace it...

don't get me wrong, we keep a warehouse full of odd, obsolete and hard to find parts for emergency installs....but they are temp. and strictly to get us by until we can get the proper parts...

i mean, you carry GL insurance...maybe $1mil with a $1mil umbrella...how far do you think that will go if there is a fire and a death that can be attributed back to this work?

i know it sounds doom and gloom...but it's not beyond the realm of possibility...we face risks every day, but why increase the odds?

[mdshunk]

i know it sounds doom and gloom...but it's not beyond the realm of possibility...
...in New Jersey.

[emahler]

...in New Jersey.

ain't that the truth...i stubbed my toe on my couch today and 5 mins later my phone rang...it was an attorney asking me if i wanted to sue myself for putting my couch in the way...:shrug:

[frizbeedog]

....don't get me wrong, we keep a warehouse full of odd, obsolete and hard to find parts for emergency installs....but they are temp. and strictly to get us by until we can get the proper parts...

This was the exact same part number. Good condition. I will not loose sleep over it. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)

The repair I did I don't consider temorary at all. It is fixed. And it will last. But you have given me food for thought. Always much appreciated, which is why I tune in here. :)

[emahler]

This was the exact same part number. Good condition. I will not loose sleep over it. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)

The repair I did I don't consider temorary at all. It is fixed. And it will last. But you have given me food for thought. Always much appreciated, which is why I tune in here. :)

no problem...good luck...but i still say you should have charged him 2x as much for dragging you out on a sunday:D

[bikeindy]

This was the exact same part number. Good condition. I will not loose sleep over it. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz :)

The repair I did I don't consider temorary at all. It is fixed. And it will last. But you have given me food for thought. Always much appreciated, which is why I tune in here. :)


From the pics It looks great. i keep meter bases new in my shop to replace in emergency cases, A little more time and the whole base could have been changed, But what you did looks good to me. Our POCO supplies Bases for free so...

Edit: I see the flush mount now, not an easy replacement.

[frizbeedog]

no problem...good luck...but i still say you should have charged him 2x as much for dragging you out on a sunday:D

But I'm rich already. This is just a hobby of mine. :grin:

[growler]

The repair I did I don't consider temorary at all. It is fixed. And it will last. But you have given me food for thought. Always much appreciated, which is why I tune in here. :)


I have fixed many of them my self and I have never worried either. But, and there is always a "but" from what I have herd locally the power companies are starting to get an attitude about repairing old meter sockets. The last one I did they hooked it back up because it was a Sunday but the linemen said they had herd rumors. I has to do with the new digital meters. They say they are damaged easily.

[emahler]

But I'm rich already. This is just a hobby of mine. :grin:

sweet...send a few sheckels over this way:D

[frizbeedog]

sweet...send a few sheckels over this way:D

Can do. Will deliver personnaly in my nice new Acura. :grin:

[tonyou812]

nice work and kudos on your work but personally I would have just replaced the whole meter pan. I would sleep better at night knowing hes got a new pan in place and another 30-40 years on it with no problems. Plus to get me out on a sunday would have cost a bit more than what you charged. Im sure that if you tell him now that he should have it replaced he probably wont see it as necassary.

[bikeindy]

Im sure that if you tell him now that he should have it replaced he probably wont see it as necassary.

neither does frizbeedog, or some of the others here including me.

[frizbeedog]

nice work and kudos on your work but personally I would have just replaced the whole meter pan. I would sleep better at night knowing hes got a new pan in place and another 30-40 years on it with no problems. Plus to get me out on a sunday would have cost a bit more than what you charged. Im sure that if you tell him now that he should have it replaced he probably wont see it as necassary.

Thanks for the kudos, but Oregon is not seeing recession like other areas, and we are still busy. Not hurting for work so no need to sell them on a full blown replacement. He's been a good customer in the past so no need to milk him. He did try to take the work in trade though. He has a Christmas tree farm, but I told him that since Christmas was so far away there would be considerable intrest on the debt. 8-)

[emahler]

neither does frizbeedog, or some of the others here including me.

this is a great point...and leads to a question...

what if frizbee had given the guy the option to replace? and the guy made an educated decision based on his circumstances to replace, instead of repair...would that have been wrong? would frisbee have ripped the guy off?

what if he never even gave the guy the option to replace, and just repaired?

what if he talked the guy out of a replacement, sold him on a repair, and it fails again in a month?

would you guys who thing the repair is fine, think that a replacement would be unnecessary and just someone overselling to make more money?

i ask these questions seriously...and would love to know your honest thoughts...

[emahler]

Can do. Will deliver personnaly in my nice new Acura. :grin:
if it's not an NSX, then just send them via DHL...:D

[bikeindy]

this is a great point...and leads to a question...

what if frizbee had given the guy the option to replace? and the guy made an educated decision based on his circumstances to replace, instead of repair...would that have been wrong? would frisbee have ripped the guy off?

what if he never even gave the guy the option to replace, and just repaired?

what if he talked the guy out of a replacement, sold him on a repair, and it fails again in a month?

would you guys who thing the repair is fine, think that a replacement would be unnecessary and just someone overselling to make more money?

i ask these questions seriously...and would love to know your honest thoughts...

I would have given the guy all the options myself, explained that the meter base was old and it could fail again if just repaired, but if I thought from seeing it first hand that the repair would last, I would point him in that direction. I stated in a earlier post that i would replace it out right if it wasn't much more work, but that thing from the looks of the photos could be a real pain, again I only see the pics not the job so i give frizbee the benifit that he made the best call for him and the customer. When you go out as the owner you know your customer and have a feel for what they want, you make a call based on all the info at hand and make good money while your at it. It could be that selling a replacement was overselling.

[Tiger Electrical]

It looks like that jaw got over 90 degrees C. I would have replaced it without a repair option. For liability and general good business it's always new materials and always comes with a 12 month warranty.

Dave

[frizbeedog]

if it's not an NSX, then just send them via DHL...:D

TSX. :mad: Looks like I will need your bank's routing number. :wink:

[mdshunk]

It could be that selling a replacement was overselling.
There is no such thing.

One of my favorite sayings is "Make an ask of yourself". It is sometimes surprising what people will bite on, simply because you just asked. Asking is 90% of the battle when selling. You owe it to yourself or your boss to at least ask and/or suggest. Many people have in their heads already more drastic repairs, and even though a suitable repair to existing could be effected the opinion of the electrician. If you ask for the "right" repair, it's often a pretty easy sale. I put "right" in quotes, because in this case it's a toss up. I've certainly put in my share of replacement 40 blocks in old meter cans that would otherwise be a pain to change on a weekend, which I'm comfortable calling a permanent and effective repair. Probably 1/2 of these were replaced with new equipment in coming days simply because I asked for the work.

[mxslick]

At first glance at the pics, I had thought a bad decision was made in replacing that meter jaw..because I was concerned about the heat damage to the insulating support.

But a closer look makes it out that the insulating support WAS replaced as well as the top left (line) jaw. If that's the case, then a job well done, and a repair I wouldn't worry about.

If, however, that insulating support was just cleaned off and reused, that would be a bad thing!!

I also feel that the customer goodwill and the potential referrals made this a good deal all around.

I have a lot of repeat business in my service biz by doing quick (yet safe) repairs when necessary. And if I have any doubts about a repair being able to last, I indicate that it is indeed a temp fix verbally and in writing on my service reports and invoices.

[emahler]

I would have given the guy all the options myself, explained that the meter base was old and it could fail again if just repaired, but if I thought from seeing it first hand that the repair would last, I would point him in that direction. I stated in a earlier post that i would replace it out right if it wasn't much more work, but that thing from the looks of the photos could be a real pain, again I only see the pics not the job so i give frizbee the benifit that he made the best call for him and the customer. When you go out as the owner you know your customer and have a feel for what they want, you make a call based on all the info at hand and make good money while your at it. It could be that selling a replacement was overselling.

2 points...what if it was an employee that went out, and not you the owner? is it really overselling to replace a 30 yr old meter? what about a 3 yr old meter?

[emahler]

TSX. :mad: Looks like I will need your bank's routing number. :wink:

why? so you can afford an NSX?:D

[emahler]

I also feel that the customer goodwill and the potential referrals made this a good deal all around.



so long as it holds...what if it fails in a month? goodwill and referrals? what if this guy doesn't talk to people? doesn't need an electrician for another 5 yrs?

these are all 'what-if' questions...not saying they are fact...just something to think about...

[frizbeedog]

But a closer look makes it out that the insulating support WAS replaced as well as the top left (line) jaw. If that's the case, then a job well done, and a repair I wouldn't worry about.

If, however, that insulating support was just cleaned off and reused, that would be a bad thing!!

The whole right side was replaced including the insulating support. The left side was not repaired. Any differences seen are due to picture quality and the fact that the fist picture shows a jumper/bypass clip installed by the power co. which left them with half power. The second picture does not show this as I did not reinstall it.

[bradleyelectric]

mispost adding characters

[bradleyelectric]

what if this guy doesn't need an electrician for another 5 yrs?

I heard somewhere that the average consumer needs an electrician every 36 months or so :)

[mdshunk]

I heard somewhere that the average consumer needs an electrician every 36 months :)
Who they actually call is another story entirely.

A guy just started a "Mr. Handyman" franchise down the road, and they're advertising electrical repairs.

[frizbeedog]

Who they actually call is another story entirely.

A guy just started a "Mr. Handyman" franchise down the road, and they're advertising electrical repairs.

Say no more.

[emahler]

I heard somewhere that the average consumer needs an electrician every 36 months or so :)

i heard that someone before too...i think i read it on the internet:D

[mxslick]

I heard somewhere that the average consumer needs an electrician every 36 months or so :)


LOL and the average cinema needs a service tech only after they lose over $4,000 in lost ticket sales when the projector/lamp/sound craps out. :grin:

The average service charge to fix most problems only runs around $500-600, :smile:

[bikeindy]

2 points...what if it was an employee that went out, and not you the owner? is it really overselling to replace a 30 yr old meter? what about a 3 yr old meter?


I'll take marc's point that there is no overselling, and give that to you. My employees would do the same as me thats how they have been trained to deal with customers, like I said I give the customer all the options all the time and then get a feeling from there feed back. If that was my customer and I told him all the options and he asked, "Would i be better off replacing this" I would reply, "Yes but not today, today I will fix it and you call me this week and we will set it on the schedule for replacement, It is going to cost you $X, when I come back." I think you know all the variable of the conversation. What it comes down to is the guy needed his power on and it was Sunday.

[emahler]

I'll take marc's point that there is no overselling, and give that to you. My employees would do the same as me thats how they have been trained to deal with customers, like I said I give the customer all the options all the time and then get a feeling from there feed back. If that was my customer and I told him all the options and he asked, "Would i be better off replacing this" I would reply, "Yes but not today, today I will fix it and you call me this week and we will set it on the schedule for replacement, It is going to cost you $X, when I come back." I think you know all the variable of the conversation. What it comes down to is the guy needed his power on and it was Sunday.

agreed...the fix on a sunday is not in question...heck my questions aren't even specifically about frisbee's post, just general questions regarding this type of situation...

we all think a little differently, and it's neat to see the differences...

[bradleyelectric]

Who they actually call is another story entirely.

A guy just started a "Mr. Handyman" franchise down the road, and they're advertising electrical repairs.

That is the look of craigslist around here. I go on once or twice a day and flag every home improvement and handman ad that lists they do any trade work and anyone that is not licensed. It is more unlicensed people advertising on there than those that are. Sometimes I put up that they can't have insurance without a license and I put 1 of my county license numbers under license# and don't advertise for anything and it drives them nuts replying back that I don't have a valid license and why am I doing that. People sometimes put up how to check state licenses and apparently they don't know that there are county licenses and they check the number to try to find out who I am. That is exactly why I don't post my state license number when I do that.

[frizbeedog]

agreed...the fix on a sunday is not in question...heck my questions aren't even specifically about frisbee's post, just general questions regarding this type of situation...

we all think a little differently, and it's neat to see the differences...

Dude, it's Frizbee man.

But you can call me Murf. I will edit my signature. :)

[mdshunk]

Murph?

http://www.vagabondish.com/wp-content/uploads/smurfs-world-record.jpg

[frizbeedog]

Murph?

http://www.vagabondish.com/wp-content/uploads/smurfs-world-record.jpg

Yes. Rhymes with smurf. Now I've done it. :grin:

[emahler]

Dude, it's Frizbee man.

But you can call me Murf. I will edit my signature. :)

it's not my fault you can't spell:D

frisbee...frizbee...NSX...TSX...go here (http://hooked-on-phonics.com/)

[frizbeedog]

it's not my fault you can't spell:D

frisbee...frizbee...NSX...TSX...go here (http://hooked-on-phonics.com/)

LOL :grin: :grin: :grin:

[tonyou812]

Thanks for the kudos, but Oregon is not seeing recession like other areas, and we are still busy. Not huring for work so no need to sell them on a full blown replacement. He's been a good customer in the past so no need to milk him. He did try to take the work in trade though. He has a Christmas tree farm, but I told him that since Christmas was so far away there would be considerable intrest on the debt. 8-)
Im really not one to milk a customer either but especially a repeat customer but let me ask you this.... If you went on a service call to trouble shoot a bad Hid light would you troubleshoot it and maybe fix a problematic capatitor or would you just replace the whole system? And you know as well as I do that if you just replace the capacitor yea youll get it up and running for a few months but wouldnt it be bettter for you and the customer to really fix it and give him a few years on your service? In the long run you and the customer wil be better off. No?

[mdshunk]

Im really not one to milk a customer either but especially a repeat customer but let me ask you this.... If you went on a service call to trouble shoot a bad Hid light would you troubleshoot it and maybe fix a problematic capatitor or would you just replace the whole system? And you know as well as I do that if you just replace the capacitor yea youll get it up and running for a few months but wouldnt it be bettter for you and the customer to really fix it and give him a few years on your service? In the long run you and the customer wil be better off. No?
That's apples and oranges, compared to what we're lookin at here in the original picture. That said, anyone that doesn't replace the whole ballast kit and the lamp as a complete repair isn't helping anyone.

[frizbeedog]

That's apples and oranges, compared to what we're lookin at here in the original picture. That said, anyone that doesn't replace the whole ballast kit and the lamp as a complete repair isn't helping anyone.

Right. If I'm up on the lift truck servicing a street light to replace an ignighter (might need hooked on phonics for that one) for an HPS for example I will replace the lamp, clean the lens, mabey change the photo cell, give the customer full service since they have paid good money for me to come out for the repair.

[stevenj76]

I know, as well you know, that Christmas Tree farming is a feast or famine cut throat business with alot of pitfalls.

You provided true service to your customer, and it doesn't take much money to stretch these folks' budget to the breaking point.

There are givers and takers in life, and I see some contractors are predatory in the service biz.

We need to get more discount and economy rate contractors who have low overhead into the electrical service industry. This competition will provide better pricing for the average joe on the street. I think that Joe Blow needs to have his own version of Bid Day.

[bradleyelectric]

I know, as well you know, that Christmas Tree farming is a feast or famine cut throat business with alot of pitfalls.

You provided true service to your customer, and it doesn't take much money to stretch these folks' budget to the breaking point.

There are givers and takers in life, and I see some contractors are predatory in the service biz.

We need to get more discount and economy rate contractors who have low overhead into the electrical service industry. This competition will provide better pricing for the average joe on the street. I think that Joe Blow needs to have his own version of Bid Day.

your not a contractor are you?

[frizbeedog]

I know, as well you know, that Christmas Tree farming is a feast or famine cut throat business with alot of pitfalls.

You provided true service to your customer, and it doesn't take much money to stretch these folks' budget to the breaking point.

Thanks.

Many folks around here who have extra land just use it as a supplement to their income. Many of these folks have full time jobs. But it is big businees here. Many of these trees are shipped overseas and the harvesting starts early in the season. Quite an operation. Helicopters used to haul trees from the fields to the packing and shipping areas nearby. I've even seen news helicopters hauling trees, so the money must be good.

[iwire]

There are givers and takers in life, and I see some contractors are predatory in the service biz.

Replacing a burned up meter socket is not predatory, it is the right thing to do.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Replacing a burned up meter socket is not predatory, it is the right thing to do.

I disagree. The can was not damaged. One jaw was burned up. The repair will probably last longer than a new can replacement, which I see rusting in about 6-8 years depending on the enviroment.

If this was switchgear, would you replace the entire section? The buss bars?

[emahler]

I know, as well you know, that Christmas Tree farming is a feast or famine cut throat business with alot of pitfalls.

You provided true service to your customer, and it doesn't take much money to stretch these folks' budget to the breaking point.

There are givers and takers in life, and I see some contractors are predatory in the service biz.

We need to get more discount and economy rate contractors who have low overhead into the electrical service industry. This competition will provide better pricing for the average joe on the street. I think that Joe Blow needs to have his own version of Bid Day.

and the button is either pushed or we have another self loathing EC....not sure which one it is....

[growler]

and the button is either pushed or we have another self loathing EC....not sure which one it is....


Another side worker. ( read previous post).:grin: :grin:

[romexking]

I know, as well you know, that Christmas Tree farming is a feast or famine cut throat business with alot of pitfalls.

You provided true service to your customer, and it doesn't take much money to stretch these folks' budget to the breaking point.

There are givers and takers in life, and I see some contractors are predatory in the service biz.

We need to get more discount and economy rate contractors who have low overhead into the electrical service industry. This competition will provide better pricing for the average joe on the street. I think that Joe Blow needs to have his own version of Bid Day.

Perhaps you should be the one to be so generous in your services. I'm sure that your area needs another "economy" electrical contractor. but wait....does this sound familiar?

I suppose this is a bad time to bring up flat-rate again.

All this talk about flat-rate has me excited to find a good system for my side work.

Before I charged T&M for my side jobs. Now I want to get a bigger piece of the pie by going flat rate, busting my hump, and going home with an even bigger wad in my pocket.

After I've got this flat-rate thing nailed down to a science, maybe I'll go out on my own, legit and all.

Probably not, I get paid more than well enough in the large commercial end. There's lots of OT too, that puts a big damper on my side biz. But when the slow times come, I'm going to be equipped with my handy sidejob flat-rate book, that way I'm not just GIVING AWAY my work for cheap.

So which is it?

[emahler]

a button pusher....and a bad one at that.....when pushing buttons, the goal is not to make people think you are an idiot, it's to just get a little rise....keep practicing...

[iwire]

I disagree. The can was not damaged. One jaw was burned up.

Unless I had a brand new jaw for that meter socket, not a left over used piece from who knows what socket the whole meter socket would get replaced.

If this was switchgear, would you replace the entire section? The buss bars?

We might.

If it was switchgear we would (and have) called in factory reps to decide what has to be replaced, repaired or reused.

It's a CYA world, guessing will not cut it if the stuff hits the fan.

If the customer wanted it done with used parts for peanuts he proably would have hired a side jobber. :wink:

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Unless I had a brand new jaw for that meter socket, not a left over used piece from who knows what socket the whole meter socket would get replaced.



If you had a leftover used piece you'd know where it came from. You save it because it was perfectly good.


We might.

If it was switchgear we would (and have) called in factory reps to decide what has to be replaced, repaired or reused.

It's a CYA world, guessing will not cut it if the stuff hits the fan.


So replacing components is guessing now is it? Makes me wonder how people call themselves "professionals." Anyone can just replace it all with new, and claim CYA is the driving force behind a mindless decision. Perhaps hiring professionals is indeed not all it's cracked up to be. No wonder sidejobbers are doing so well...


If the customer wanted it done with used parts for peanuts he proably would have hired a side jobber. :wink:

The customer wanted it fixed. Hired a professional. Got it fixed and all is right with the world. But because this misfortune wasn't turned into the largest most profitable job as it could have, the OP is practically branded a hack.

Unbelievable...

[emahler]

Unless I had a brand new jaw for that meter socket, not a left over used piece from who knows what socket the whole meter socket would get replaced.



We might.

If it was switchgear we would (and have) called in factory reps to decide what has to be replaced, repaired or reused.

It's a CYA world, guessing will not cut it if the stuff hits the fan.

If the customer wanted it done with used parts for peanuts he proably would have hired a side jobber. :wink:

bob, i have to agree with you....i don't condemn frizbee and hope he has no problems (and he knows this)

but in this world, you have o CYA....

[iwire]

I don't think frizbeedog is bad guy, in fact I am sure he is a nice guy. I would have done the same thing at my own home and I would do the same for a friend as a freebie. :)

But when I am sent to a call by my employer I might take a short cut to get online until new parts are availble but in the end it will be replaced.

Lawnguy, spin it however you want, there is no good reason not to replace questionable parts.

[dSilanskas]

I agree iWire8-)

[frizbeedog]

I don't think frizbeedog is bad guy, in fact I am sure he is a nice guy.

I agree with iwire. :grin:

[Rewire]

Lawyer: Where did you purchase this part?
You; I did not purchase it
Lawyer:How did you aquire this part?
You ;I removed it from an old meter.
Lawyer;this was a used part?
you ; Yes
Lawyer:Was the part defective?
you;It looked fine
lawyer;Did you preform any tests or hire anyone to preform any test to determine if this part was used part was not defective?
You :No
Lawyer :So this part could have been defective?
You ...........

[emahler]

I agree with iwire. :grin:

yeah, i'm thinking you don't get a vote:D

[growler]

Lawyer :So this part could have been defective?
You ...........

It's made in America so what do you think. :grin:

One last joke before jail.

[frizbeedog]

Lawyer: Where did you purchase this part?
You; I did not purchase it
Lawyer:How did you aquire this part?
You ;I removed it from an old meter.
Lawyer;this was a used part?
you ; Yes
Lawyer:Was the part defective?
you;It looked fine
lawyer;Did you preform any tests or hire anyone to preform any test to determine if this part was used part was not defective?
You :No
Lawyer :So this part could have been defective?
You ...........

Exactly what kind of test could you perform on this part? As I said before this replacement part was the exact same part number, and a visual inspection of the item revealed no damage. Since I'm a qualified electrician and quite capable from experience too make these kind of judgments, how could my judgment or evaluation of the part be any less than that of anyone else? I don't care if the part is new or used for something like this, if it's good, then use it. This is a repair to get an existing installation back into service. No hack work involved. Some lawyer would have to first prove that my judgments were in error due to incompetence, and show a history of such.

I sure hope some of you guys are installing new temorary services on construction sites every time. :D I know that no one huals these around from site to site. :rolleyes:

But since legal discussions have come into play, then lets look at some of the various legal issues regarding this situation. Not just speculation, but actual laws. Who can provide some?

[bikeindy]

Not just speculation, but actual laws. Who can provide some?

How about ohms law does that apply?

Hey seems like when everyone else was doing the CYA dance you made some money. I still say your good with the install. I warrenty all my work for Three years, I would do that for your fix if it had been done by me.

[bikeindy]

It's made in America so what do you think. :grin:

One last joke before jail.

Dude you're so down on the States already dang.

[emahler]

Exactly what kind of test could you perform on this part? As I said before this replacement part was the exact same part number, and a visual inspection of the item revealed no damage. Since I'm a qualified electrician and quite capable from experience too make these kind of judgments, how could my judgment or evaluation of the part be any less than that of anyone else? I don't care if the part is new or used for something like this, if it's good, then use it. This is a repair to get an existing installation back into service. No hack work involved. Some lawyer would have to first prove that my judgments were in error due to incompetence, and show a history of such.

I sure hope some of you guys are installing new temorary services on construction sites every time. :D I know that no one huals these around from site to site. :rolleyes:

But since legal discussions have come into play, then lets look at some of the various legal issues regarding this situation. Not just speculation, but actual laws. Who can provide some?

friz...the truth is you are correct...the other truth is that it doesn't matter that you are correct...

if the house burns down and someone dies (unlikely, but run with it) the insurance company will use their deep pockets and army of attorneys (or blood sucking scum) to go after you...your legal fees and other costs associated with defending yourself could, in a very real sense, bankrupt you...

so while people can say, no worries..they also won't be on the hook with you if something were to happen.

my entire point is think about this stuff and protect yourself the best you can..good luck...

[zbang]

FWIW, when I was doing fire alarms in the late 70's, we would routinely remove old Faraday systems to install new gear. The removed parts were "cleaned & tested" (for basic function, they were mostly special relays) and put on the shelf for spares. We hit the spares pile maybe once a month to restore or expand service in some old building. Was this wrong? The local FDs didn't seem to think so. (I guess a functioning FA is better than a non-functioning one.)

[bikeindy]

friz...the truth is you are correct...the other truth is that it doesn't matter that you are correct...

if the house burns down and someone dies (unlikely, but run with it) the insurance company will use their deep pockets and army of attorneys (or blood sucking scum) to go after you...your legal fees and other costs associated with defending yourself could, in a very real sense, bankrupt you...

so while people can say, no worries..they also won't be on the hook with you if something were to happen.

my entire point is think about this stuff and protect yourself the best you can..good luck...

Have you been watching law and order again?

[emahler]

Have you been watching law and order again?

every hour of the day:D....that show is always on

[mivey]

if the house burns down and someone dies (unlikely, but run with it) the insurance company will use their deep pockets and army of attorneys (or blood sucking scum) to go after you...You can do everything just like you were supposed to and they will still come after you. You can even lose EVEN IF YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. A jury is a strange beast.

[480sparky]

You can do everything just like you were supposed to and they will still come after you. You can even lose EVEN IF YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. A jury is a strange beast.

Who says it needs to go to a jury to lose everything? You could be in the poorhouse before it even goes to trial.

[mivey]

Who says it needs to go to a jury to lose everything? You could be in the poorhouse before it even goes to trial.That is why the pay-off is sometimes the chosen route instead of the trial.

[frizbeedog]

You can do everything just like you were supposed to and they will still come after you. You can even lose EVEN IF YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. A jury is a strange beast.

I got to thinking today (boy, did that hurt with the time change lag). Say the meter jaw did have a meltdown, Like before. What if it was the Power Co. meter that was the cause? Their product and mine have to work together for anything to happen.

[mivey]

I got to thinking today (boy, did that hurt with the time change lag). Say the meter jaw did have a meltdown, Like before. What if it was the Power Co. meter that was the cause? Their product and mine have to work together for anything to happen.How would you prove which one failed? If you could prove which one failed, how could you show negligence? Equipment just fails, that is the nature of the beast. If you made a repair based on your expertise and called it good, someone would have to show you did not know what you were doing. Like you said earlier:Some lawyer would have to first prove that my judgments were in error due to incompetence, and show a history of such.I would guess repairs are common in our industry using new and used parts. I have done both and have not lost a minute of sleep over either. If I would not make a given repair for my family or loved ones, I would not make it for anybody else. A disclaimer stating that it is a temporary repair might be in order in some cases.
Living in fear of what might happen with attorneys and juries might not be the best route because you really could fear those knuckle-heads all the time in any situation.

[emahler]

you don't have to live in fear of it, you just can't live ignorant of the possibility...you have to be cognizant of it...

[480sparky]

How would you prove which one failed? .....

You don't. You just sue both the electrician and the POCO.

You also sue the wire manufacturer, as well as the tool manufacturers that the electrician used. You also sue the maker of his van, since he drove it to the job. You sue the maker of the equipment since it was installed. While you're at it, you drag UL into the fray as they had a label on the stuff.

You sue the utility lineman since he hooked it up. You sue the transformer maker since they made the equipment that supplied power to it. You sue the neighboring property owners as they were neglegent in their vigilance for keeping such poor workmanship away from your client.

You sue the contractor that paved the street, sidewalk or driveway where it was located, because without a dry, level surface, none of this work could have been done. You sue the inspector since he OK'd the job. You sue the pharmaceutical company that made the cold medicine the inpsector took the morning of that inspection so he could still inspect the job while he had a cold.


It's the American way!

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f187/blucolt/lawyers.jpg

[Rewire]

Criminal liability and civil liability do not require the same burden of proof.The reason I carry liability insurance is because I can be sued having done nothing wrong my policy will defend itself so I am not paying for a lawyer.I minimize my exposure by not using "used" parts the homeowner may be happy as a clam but it wont be him but his insurance carrier that will come after you.

[petersonra]

Criminal liability and civil liability do not require the same burden of proof.The reason I carry liability insurance is because I can be sued having done nothing wrong my policy will defend itself so I am not paying for a lawyer.I minimize my exposure by not using "used" parts the homeowner may be happy as a clam but it wont be him but his insurance carrier that will come after you.
Legal costs are the main reason you buy liability insurance. You can easily be bankrupted by legal costs even if you win a law suit. Let the insurance companies do their thing.

I don't see there is anything wrong with keeping a few odd ball used but still servicible parts on hand. The liability is no more or less than if you installed a new part and it failed and damaged something.

[Rewire]

I don't see there is anything wrong with keeping a few odd ball used but still servicible parts on hand. The liability is no more or less than if you installed a new part and it failed and damaged something.
Your exposure is greater with used parts,how do you aquire most of your used parts?Most used parts are aquired when they are replaced with new parts so the question is why were they replaced?If I replace a meter because a lug burned and I salvage the other lug put it in a base and it fails I have assumed 100% liability now if I purchase a new base and it fails the manufacturer now has assumed part of the liability as my liability is now limited to the installation.

[petersonra]

Your exposure is greater with used parts,how do you aquire most of your used parts?Most used parts are aquired when they are replaced with new parts so the question is why were they replaced?If I replace a meter because a lug burned and I salvage the other lug put it in a base and it fails I have assumed 100% liability now if I purchase a new base and it fails the manufacturer now has assumed part of the liability as my liability is now limited to the installation.
You are 100% responsible in any case. It is a myth that anyone can transfer legal liability to someone else. In fact, if there is a law suit and you are found 50% responsible and another party is also found 50% responsible, you are usually on the hook for 100% of the damages awarded if the other party does not pay

It may be helpful to have a large company standing in court alongside you, but they usually can't say they have no liability for the used but still servicible part that was reused anymore than they can avoid liability for that part in its existing installation. It is still a used part in either case.

[Rewire]

You are 100% responsible in any case. It is a myth that anyone can transfer legal liability to someone else. In fact, if there is a law suit and you are found 50% responsible and another party is also found 50% responsible, you are usually on the hook for 100% of the damages awarded if the other party does not pay

It may be helpful to have a large company standing in court alongside you, but they usually can't say they have no liability for the used but still servicible part that was reused anymore than they can avoid liability for that part in its existing installation. It is still a used part in either case.
I am glad you are not my lawyer,If I install a product acording to the manufatures specs and code compliant and the part has a defect due to manufacturing then my exposure to liability is arguably less than if I pull a part out of a piece of equipment that was replaced to to a problem which is how we aquire most used parts.Without knowing the history of a part how do you know it will not fail,I know that even new parts can fail but the probability curve greatly increases with used parts.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

friz...the truth is you are correct...the other truth is that it doesn't matter that you are correct...

if the house burns down and someone dies (unlikely, but run with it) the insurance company will use their deep pockets and army of attorneys (or blood sucking scum) to go after you...your legal fees and other costs associated with defending yourself could, in a very real sense, bankrupt you...

so while people can say, no worries..they also won't be on the hook with you if something were to happen.

my entire point is think about this stuff and protect yourself the best you can..good luck...

I want to point out that it seems at least 90% of residential fires around here end up being classified as electrical. Some of the more recent ones decsribe these fires occuring in basement apartments, or illegal single family home conversions or other, uninspected finsihed living spaces. I have yet to hear about any electrical contractor being charged with anything, or sued by insurers. I haven't heard of anyone, including the owners of the property going to jail.

Believe it or not, insurers are loathe to engage the courts. Even when doctors are sued there's usually an out of court settlement because the insurers would rather settle than suffer the costs of litigation. And when they do end up in court, there's always an attorney for the plaintiff's insurance company flanked by an attorney for the plaintiff as an individual, because the insurance company's counsel isn't necessarily interested in defending their customer.

When it comes to lawsuits, specifically torts, the accusor has to prove negligence. Negligence is defined as the failure of a person to do something that a "reasonable person" would ordinarily do, or doing something that a reasonable person would not ordinarily do, or the failure to use ordinary care.

So it comes down to, would a reasonable person use a part that was perfectly fine when it was taken out of service? You say an attorney would ask if it was sent out for testing. It sure as heck was, it was tested for years in it's previous installation and came through that test with flying colors. It never failed. Talk about a real life bench test!

I'd venture to guess that you think installing a brand new meter pan somehow absolves you, or at least insulates you from liability should that fail. You probably think the manufacturer would be left holding the bag. Have you considered that decent trial lawyer might demand your bench test procedures on new equipment? After all, it's not UNreasonable to state that many of the parts and devices we've been seeing lately, manufactured who knows where, have been defective right out of the box. Lately every electrician has lamented that the quality of manufactured components just isn't there anymore. So it's not unreasonable to suggest that with the quality control of electrical components being suspect, no reasonable person should assume worthiness without some qualifier other than "I just bought it."

And yet that is exactly what everyone is doing when they justify installing new just to "CYA."

IMO you are no worse off installing used, undamaged equipment than new from a liability standpoint. At least used parts have proven themselves and withstood the test of time.

Just because something is damaged, doesn't mean repair is not not a reasonable option over replacement. Am I the only one who detects a little profit motive as being the real reason you're rattling the gavel of "CYA sensibility" as a scare tactic towards higher profits?

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

FWIW, when I was doing fire alarms in the late 70's, we would routinely remove old Faraday systems to install new gear. The removed parts were "cleaned & tested" (for basic function, they were mostly special relays) and put on the shelf for spares. We hit the spares pile maybe once a month to restore or expand service in some old building. Was this wrong? The local FDs didn't seem to think so. (I guess a functioning FA is better than a non-functioning one.)

Plane crashes and car wrecks are salvaged for parts too.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

That is why the pay-off is sometimes the chosen route instead of the trial.

But payoff is never the choice of the accused, it's the insurer who would rather not pay for a good fight. And keep in mind your insurer is defending their bottom line, not yours.

Does anyone here know of a contractor sued for a defective electrical installation, where the contractor ended up in the poorhouse or the big house?

Anyone?

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I am glad you are not my lawyer,If I install a product acording to the manufatures specs and code compliant and the part has a defect due to manufacturing then my exposure to liability is arguably less than if I pull a part out of a piece of equipment that was replaced to to a problem which is how we aquire most used parts.Without knowing the history of a part how do you know it will not fail,I know that even new parts can fail but the probability curve greatly increases with used parts.


You DO know the history of the used part! It worked flawlessly for years when you removed it from a real-life bench test. The test concluded when the 200a service you took it from was upgraded for being inadequate, not incapable. Not defective.

[Rewire]

I have yet to hear about any electrical contractor being charged with anything, or sued by insurers. I haven't heard of anyone, including the owners of the property going to jail. Most cases are settled between insurance carriers and electricians much like doctors are not going to announce to the world they have been sued.

Believe it or not, insurers are loathe to engage the courts. Even when doctors are sued there's usually an out of court settlement because the insurers would rather settle than suffer the costs of litigation. And when they do end up in court, there's always an attorney for the plaintiff's insurance company flanked by an attorney for the plaintiff as an individual, because the insurance company's counsel isn't necessarily interested in defending their customer. settle out of court is always cheaper and always get your own lawyer

When it comes to lawsuits, specifically torts, the accusor has to prove negligence. Negligence is defined as the failure of a person to do something that a "reasonable person" would ordinarily do, or doing something that a reasonable person would not ordinarily do, or the failure to use ordinary care. the standard is lower than in a criminal case it is not beyond a reasonable doubt but weighted
So it comes down to, would a reasonable person use a part that was perfectly fine when it was taken out of service? assumes facts not in evidence You say an attorney would ask if it was sent out for testing. It sure as heck was, it was tested for years in it's previous installation and came through that test with flying colors. It never failed. Talk about a real life bench test! how many times was this part pushed to the point of failure during its previous use,was the part damaged in removal,why was the part removed if it was not broke or part of a damaged assembly

I'd venture to guess that you think installing a brand new meter pan somehow absolves you, or at least insulates you from liability should that fail. You probably think the manufacturer would be left holding the bag. Have you considered that decent trial lawyer might demand your bench test procedures on new equipment? After all, it's not UNreasonable to state that many of the parts and devices we've been seeing lately, manufactured who knows where, have been defective right out of the box. Lately every electrician has lamented that the quality of manufactured components just isn't there anymore. So it's not unreasonable to suggest that with the quality control of electrical components being suspect, no reasonable person should assume worthiness without some qualifier other than "I just bought it." A reasonable person would believe that a part purchased from a reputable supplier was manufactured to meet minimum standards of reliability



IMO you are no worse off installing used, undamaged equipment than new from a liability standpoint. At least used parts have proven themselves and withstood the test of time. Glad your not my legal advisor

Just because something is damaged, doesn't mean repair is not not a reasonable option over replacement. Am I the only one who detects a little profit motive as being the real reason you're rattling the gavel of "CYA sensibility" as a scare tactic towards higher profits?If profit were a motive then advocating selling used parts for new price would be the position to take.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Most cases are settled between insurance carriers and electricians much like doctors are not going to announce to the world they have been sued.

As a result, doctors are seeing their liability coverage increase to the magnitude of $100,000.00 per year. How much is a contractor's liability coverage going for these days?


settle out of court is always cheaper and always get your own lawyer


Not in the long run. Then again, insurance corporations aren't as interested in the costs over the long run, they're looking quarterly. This is why there is so much resistance to tort reform. If the loser ends up paying all of the costs of the litigation, there would be far fewer lawyers.


the standard is lower than in a criminal case it is not beyond a reasonable doubt but weighted

Were not talking about reasonable doubt. Getting sued is a civil action, not criminal.


assumes facts not in evidence how many times was this part pushed to the point of failure during its previous use,was the part damaged in removal,why was the part removed if it was not broke or part of a damaged assembly

The burdon of proof is on the accuser. You don't have to prove a part was reliable. Even though it has proven itself reliable already, which is why you kept it. That is a fact in evidence. It must be proven it was not reliable by the accuser. That isn't evident, and must be made evident if that is going to be the crux of a suit. So the question comes down to, is it reasonable that a used part could be considered reliable after it has worked flawlessly for years, is it unreasonable to reuse that part, AND can the accuser prove that a subsequent failure was due to the reuse of that part.


A reasonable person would believe that a part purchased from a reputable supplier was manufactured to meet minimum standards of reliability

And what reason would you believe that part loses it reputation for reliability? Do static parts with no wear and tear have an expiration date?


Glad your not my legal advisor


Me too. It would be as foolhearty as taking legal advice from someone with a profit motive pitching the sale of new parts to CYA. And yet because it sounds like it makes more sense to install new to CYA, those words are still coming from a contractor.


If profit were a motive then advocating selling used parts for new price would be the position to take.

When profit is the motive, all else takes a back seat to the ultimate goal, no matter how much sense it makes or doesn't make.

[iwire]

I am not a lawyer but I pretend to be one on the Internet. :grin:

[Rewire]

As a result, doctors are seeing their liability coverage increase to the magnitude of $100,000.00 per year. How much is a contractor's liability coverage going for these days?depends on the level of coverage



Not in the long run. Then again, insurance corporations aren't as interested in the costs over the long run, they're looking quarterly. This is why there is so much resistance to tort reform. If the loser ends up paying all of the costs of the litigation, there would be far fewer lawyers.

this makes no sense

Were not talking about reasonable doubt. Getting sued is a civil action, not criminal. my point exactly less burden of proof



The burdon of proof is on the accuser. but the birden is often low You don't have to prove a part was reliable.this would be a summary judgement Even though it has proven itself reliable already, which is why you kept it. That is a fact in evidence. It must be proven it was not reliable by the accuser. That isn't evident, and must be made evident if that is going to be the crux of a suit. So the question comes down to, is it reasonable that a used part could be considered reliable after it has worked flawlessly for years, is it unreasonable to reuse that part, AND can the accuser prove that a subsequent failure was due to the reuse of that part. the argument comes down to is the fact it was a used part a contributing factor to failure and was it reasonable to assume the used part would not fail the argument that it was in service for years without problem helps but also opens the door to the argument that it was likely subject to conditions that could lead to failure



And what reason would you believe that part loses it reputation for reliability? Do static parts with no wear and tear have an expiration date? enviromental conditions have an effect even on static parts



Me too. It would be as foolhearty as taking legal advice from someone with a profit motive pitching the sale of new parts to CYA. And yet because it sounds like it makes more sense to install new to CYA, those words are still coming from a contractor. when you get sued for installing old parts let me know how it works out for you



When profit is the motive, all else takes a back seat to the ultimate goal, no matter how much sense it makes or doesn't make.Not sure which side you are arguing but most businesses are profit motivated

[macmikeman]

When them SUV's started flipping over on the freeway due to underinflated tire pressure straight from the factory, the car dealerships were not held liable by any courts. They bought and sold the cars to the end users. Electrical contractors are the same. If the part fails, the installer is not held liable for its testing, that is implied by the manufacture as having been done to the component before it leaves the factory. As I said when this thread began, it is tempting to re-use service parts, but better to provide brand new and charge the appropriate amount for its resale. Then make sure you install it the proper way. Temporary fix to hold until Monday is fine in my book, but make sure to ensure you are going to be paid to return and replace it, or have the owner sign off on the liability of the temporary fix.

[zdog]

just a question.on the ops pic it looks like the meter is recessed in the wall.what if he had a meter of same type never used but a year old and you took out the both lugs and replaced them with the good ones. ,but not replace the can.would you call that a temp fix or good to go?

[petersonra]

I am glad you are not my lawyer,If I install a product acording to the manufatures specs and code compliant and the part has a defect due to manufacturing then my exposure to liability is arguably less than if I pull a part out of a piece of equipment that was replaced to to a problem which is how we aquire most used parts.Without knowing the history of a part how do you know it will not fail,I know that even new parts can fail but the probability curve greatly increases with used parts.
I don't even pretend to be a lawyer, but I do know that you cannot shift liability to another party. If you are sued it is your problem. Your liability insurance is there to provide legal defense and to cover damages that may be assessed. but it is not your insurance company that is being sued, they are a third party to the suit.

It matters not one bit if the part you used was brand new or 100 years old. you installed it, and because of that fact you are likely to be sued.

A clever plaintiff's lawyer might be able to make the used part into an issue with a jury, but as far as your liability goes, where the part came from changes nothing.

[emahler]

I don't even pretend to be a lawyer, but I do know that you cannot shift liability to another party. If you are sued it is your problem. Your liability insurance is there to provide legal defense and to cover damages that may be assessed. but it is not your insurance company that is being sued, they are a third party to the suit.

It matters not one bit if the part you used was brand new or 100 years old. you installed it, and because of that fact you are likely to be sued.

A clever plaintiff's lawyer might be able to make the used part into an issue with a jury, but as far as your liability goes, where the part came from changes nothing.

you are not shifting responsibility, he manufactuer already has it...you will be sued, but so will they....

[jrclen]

1352

Do you save old parts from service changes you have done?

1353



Look at that long wire stub on the lower left. Was it like that from the original install? It looks sloppy to me. I wonder if that guy forgot to tighten the clamp on the right?

Just out of curiosity, can you get a permit and inspection on Sunday? Not me.

[frizbeedog]

posted by, jrclen
Look at that long wire stub on the lower left. Was it like that from the original install? It looks sloppy to me. I wonder if that guy forgot to tighten the clamp on the right?

Yes, and you can see that I trimmed it. It was very close to the can.

posted by, jrclen
Just out of curiosity, can you get a permit and inspection on Sunday? Not me.

The following is from Oregon Admistrative Rules:

918-309-0080
Temporary Electrical Permit Rule

(a) “Emergency Electrical Work” is an acute,
unplanned and immediate need for electrical repair or
replacement involving an existing electrical installation or
product or both;

(3) Temporary Permit. A jurisdiction shall
recognize the existence of a temporary electrical permit
when the contractor encounters “emergency electrical
work” or “unanticipated electrical work,” complies
with section (4) of this rule and does electrical work.
(4) Temporary Permit Procedures. The contractor
must comply with subsection (a) of this section and
with one of the requirements of subsections (b) to (d)
of this section:
(a) Prior to commencing work, the contractor
shall fill out a standard form electrical permit
application for any jurisdiction, identify the proper
jurisdiction, identify the contractor, and provide the
electrical contractor and Construction Contractors
Board identifications:
(A) The standard permit application form
covering electrical installations can be used in any
transaction, except the fees shall be that of the
jurisdiction where the work is done;
(B) A restricted energy electrical application can
only be used if the work is strictly covered by that
permit;
(C) The temporary permit must be signed by the
journeyman or technician that does the work or by a
supervising electrician;
(D) A copy must be posted at the job site marked
“temporary permit,” showing the starting work date
and the ending date of the temporary permit. The
ending date shall not be more than seven days from the
starting date.
(b) FAX a copy to the jurisdiction and mail the
original with proper payment to the jurisdiction all
within seven days of the start of the work;
(c) If the jurisdiction does not have a FAX
machine, telephone the jurisdiction informing it of the
time, place and type of work that was started within 24
hours of the opening for business by the jurisdiction,
and mail a copy of the completed application and
payment within seven days of the start of the work; or
(d) If the jurisdiction has a recording device, call
in the time, place and type of work within 12 hours of
the start of work and complete the electrical permit
application and payment within seven days of the start
of the work.

[jrclen]

posted by, jrclen

Yes, and you can see that I trimmed it. It was very close to the can.

posted by, jrclen
.
The following is from Oregon Admistrative Rules:

Yes, I see you trimmed it. My point was - sloppy work on one side may explain the melt down on the other side.

We can do emergency repairs under the same sort of rules. My big question would be getting the POCO to put the meter back without a green sticker. Just wondering that's all.

[frizbeedog]

We can do emergency repairs under the same sort of rules. My big question would be getting the POCO to put the meter back without a green sticker. Just wondering that's all.

We as contractors must certify that that the electrical installation meets current codes and may be safely energized. We essentially let them off the hook with written docummentation of such and with all permit information.
The Power Co. is required to re-energize under this rule of Oregon Revised Statutes:

479.570 Installation approved by inspector;
exceptions. (1) Except as provided
in subsection (2) of this section, a person
who sells electricity shall not energize an
electrical installation unless the installation
is first approved by an inspector authorized
to perform inspections under ORS 479.510 to
479.945.
(2) Subsection (1) of this section does not
apply to:
(a) An installation for which a written
request to energize has been made by a licensed
supervising electrician qualified pursuant
to ORS 479.630 (2) and to which the
appropriate electrical permit has been attached;
(b) A temporary installation of less than
480 volts made to provide service to a construction
site or irrigation pump if the installation
is properly grounded and the
appropriate electrical permit is attached
thereto;
(c) An installation within a plant or system
of a person who sells electricity. As used
in this paragraph, “person who sells electricity”
does not include small power production
facilities as defined in ORS 758.500
(1981 Replacement Part); or
(d) A minor electrical installation for
which a valid installation label has been issued.
(3) Electrical installations energized
without inspection pursuant to subsection
(2)(a) and (b) of this section must receive
final inspection as required by ORS 479.510
to 479.945. [1959 c.406 §8; 1981 c.815 §11; 1983 c.580
§1; 1987 c.575 §6; 2003 c.14 §324]

[bradleyelectric]

Just did a job for Atlantic Broadband this afternoon. someone with a backhoe tore the service off the wall of their shed. Talked to the AHJ and he told me to do the job, they would issue a temp cut in card as a work with with the power company. I actually didn't have to make the call to schedule with the power company. Atlantic Broadband made the call to the power company which is very unusual in this jurisdiction. I didn't have an address for the job, just "It's right off route 40 next to the water tower" The power company wanted a physical address from me. Atlantic told me "Don't worry about it, we have a cell # to call" I figured I wouldn't worry about it and let them make the call. I'll do the paperwork tommorrow.

[jrclen]

We as contractors must certify that that the electrical installation meets current codes and may be safely energized. We essentially let them off the hook with written docummentation of such and with all permit information.
The Power Co. is required to re-energize under this rule of Oregon Revised Statutes:

We are still trying to work these bugs out. Not long ago we didn't have permits or inspections except in the cities. So we just filled out an affidavit form for the POCO, and they would look over the service and heat up the entrance.

Then the state pushed permits and inspections, (which I think is great), and they and the POCO got into some sort of pssing contest. The POCO's while doing the CYA dance, took a hard line position and wants that sticker no matter what. It's a pain in the butt.

The state needs some documents like you have there. We can get an emergency inspection, but it is very difficult and time consuming. That said, I've never had a problem with commercial this way, only residential.

[Teaspoon]

Yes i always salvage reusable parts.I am a packrat of sorts.
It has paid off a few times Having these old parts.
But if the circumstances allow,I like to install new.