For all you "20 ampers"

[bikeindy]

All you guys who just can't see your way to using 15 amp circuits.


How many of you own and operate a business?
Manage an EC business?
Do estimating and get the work for an EC?

[emahler]

All you guys who just can't see your way to using 15 amp circuits.


How many of you own and operate a business?
Manage a n EC business?
Do estimating and get the work for an EC?

pay the bills?

[peter d]

My kind of topic. :D :D

My guess would be "very few." As an employee, it's very easy to spend money when it's not your own. ;)

[e57]

I've worked for many in the 20's only mind-set. They have their reasons. So do I depending on the circumstances and the load.... Cans might get 15, track might get 20. Commercial all 20's, if for only the sake of re-purposing them.....

[quogueelectric]

All you guys who just can't see your way to using 15 amp circuits.


How many of you own and operate a business?
Manage a n EC business?
Do estimating and get the work for an EC?
Here is one. Code is the minimum dont particularly like 14 wire unless it is lightly loaded. Next question. Do the least amount of quality and the least amount of materials and the least amount of work is not how I ride. I use it when I have to to get a job from a gc looking for bottom of the barrel. You tell me right now what the cost difference is for 12 as opposed to 14 for a 2000 sq ft house. I use 14 when customer wants bare minimum I prefer 12 if the customer can afford it. You think you are reinventing the wheel here.

[peter d]

. Do the least amount of quality and the least amount of materials and the least amount of work is not how I ride.

Sorry, but using #14 does not reduce the quality of a job. But you apparently don't believe that, so I'm preaching to a brick wall here.

[celtic]

I had been an all 20 man for a number of years.
Some guy who has a bunch of banned user names helped me see the error of my ways.
Now it's all 14 unless code requires otherwise; the print/engineer is explicit in his reasoning; or the owners/GC are explicit....in any case, if it's to be upsized the price will reflect that.

BTW, with 14 backstabbing is possible and very likely to be a part

[jaylectricity]

Sorry, but using #14 does not reduce the quality of a job. But you apparently don't believe that, so I'm preaching to a brick wall here.

I've seen entire apartments supplied with one 15 amp circuit. Now that may not be desirable, but I have no problem running 15 amp circuits for living rooms and lighting.

Right now I have a computer, two sound mixers, DSL modem, printer, monitor, speakers, musical keyboard, bass amplifier, DVD player, VCR, cable box, stereo, television, XBox, lamp, and fan on a single 15 amp circuit. I've had them all on at the same time allowing for many people to entertain themselves in various ways and have never had a problem.

I agree with you peter d.

[stickboy1375]

20 amp guys are just too stuck in their ways, its impossible to convince them otherwise... which I dont really care, just dont tell me how great you think 20 amp is over 15...

[mdshunk]

...just dont tell me how great you think 20 amp is over 15...
The main difference between the 20 ampers and the 15's is 5 amps.

[jaylectricity]

You tell me right now what the cost difference is for 12 as opposed to 14 for a 2000 sq ft house.

It's not just the cost of materials...it's the extra labor to deal with the 12 wire. If you have to make up every single box with 12 wire it takes longer and wears down the workers faster. Plus you have to account for box fill. So you have to buy deeper boxes or have more box locations which is also more labor.

14 wire is for some things, 12 wire is for others, 10 is for a few things, etc...

[stickboy1375]

The main difference between the 20 ampers and the 15's is 5 amps.


Or a mere 600 watts... however you want to look at it. ;) So to use 12awg for 600 watts just blows my mind, the extra money in copper, & labor turns me off.

[peter d]

I've seen entire apartments supplied with one 15 amp circuit.

Me too, I've rewired a bunch of old apartments that were like that, usually the ancient BX or K&T that served the entire apartment. I'm sure you see this all the time as you're from New England too.

Usually what I see is that the only other circuits might be for the furnace, and maybe if someone was smart they added another circuit for the kitchen counter or fridge, but not very often.

[celtic]

20 amp guys are just too stuck in their ways, its impossible to convince them otherwise...

That's not true...they just need the right teacher (see #7 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=811996&postcount=7)):D

[bikeindy]

Here is one. Code is the minimum dont particularly like 14 wire unless it is lightly loaded. Next question. Do the least amount of quality and the least amount of materials and the least amount of work is not how I ride. I use it when I have to to get a job from a gc looking for bottom of the barrel. You tell me right now what the cost difference is for 12 as opposed to 14 for a 2000 sq ft house. I use 14 when customer wants bare minimum I prefer 12 if the customer can afford it. You think you are reinventing the wheel here.


I can't tell you what the cost difference is between 12 and 14 on a 2000SF house till you tell me how many receptacles and lights there are. I don't wire homes that small, and it is likely i will pay more in materials doing 14 than the way you do 12, I may have many more home runs than you and they cost money, my point is a well designed system run in 14 can be better than one run in 12. 12 takes more time in labor and is more difficult to work with i use it where I have to for design and code. 14 wire is not the least amount of quality it is the same material as 12 wire it just carries a smaller load. pulling 2 homeruns of 14 gets you more power and is twice the work so using 14 is not the least amount of work. It is about designing a good electrical system for the home. The wheel has been reinvented over 2000 times in the last century and I am not a wheelsmith I am an Electrician.

[ike5547]

The main difference between the 20 ampers and the 15's is 5 amps.


Can't argue with that.

[emahler]

The main difference between the 20 ampers and the 15's is 5 amps.

until you go over 3 hrs...then it's only 4 amps:D

[peter d]

Haskins, where are you when we need you????

[Tiger Electrical]

I usually install 1/2" emt and 12 ga stranded for receptacles. I don't see any labor difference rough or final. It's all figured in the bid, so using 12 ga isn't coming out of my pocket. I've heard a few complaints about vacuum cleaners tripping breakers over the years & decided that extra 5 amps would be nice. It's not my religion & I'm not trying to convert anyone. I also only install QO and use mostly P&S. If I have warranty issues with any materials I look for something else that will last for obvious reasons. If the rest of the world uses 14 ga, Homeline & backstabs it doesn't bother me a bit.

Dave

[emahler]

I usually install 1/2" emt and 12 ga stranded for receptacles. I don't see any labor difference rough or final. It's all figured in the bid, so using 12 ga isn't coming out of my pocket. I've heard a few complaints about vacuum cleaners tripping breakers over the years & decided that extra 5 amps would be nice. It's not my religion & I'm not trying to convert anyone. I also only install QO and use mostly P&S. If I have warranty issues with any materials I look for something else that will last for obvious reasons. If the rest of the world uses 14 ga, Homeline & backstabs it doesn't bother me a bit.

Dave

well heck, when you're running pipe, what difference does the wire cost make? :D

#12 stranded is easy to work with...#12 romex will wear you down....especially when you get old:D

[jaylectricity]

until you go over 3 hrs...then it's only 4 amps:D

Heh...good call.

[Minuteman]

It's not a real issue to me, as it is local code to use #12 only, so my competitors have to bid the same wire as do I.

However, it seems to me, that if you use #14 & #12, and I use #12 only, that I would have fewer homeruns and the price difference would be a wash.

[hey_poolboy]

Just finished a house in a jurisdiction that would not allow any #14 in resi construction. I figured I may as well do all 20's since they make us use #12.

It is kinda sad and frustrating to not be able to run #14 for smokes or some lighting circuits.

[growler]

If the rest of the world uses 14 ga, Homeline & backstabs it doesn't bother me a bit.

Now that you mention it I don't know why I should care either. Much of my work comes from back stab receptacles.
I should be promoting those things and maybe #14 as well.

Just why the heck did they take FPE panels off the market? We should lobby to bring those back. :grin: :grin:

Stab locks forever!!!!:grin: :grin:

[Tiger Electrical]

well heck, when you're running pipe, what difference does the wire cost make? :D

#12 stranded is easy to work with...#12 romex will wear you down....especially when you get old:D

I don't even carry NM on the truck. Every time I do a service change with NM I'm complaining about having to deal with all those ground wires & all the extra work I have to do. It IS nice that it flexes into the panel. Doing a service change with 10 conduits with a different hole configuration can be trying on the patience.

Dave

[emahler]

Now that you mention it I don't know why I should care either. Much of my work comes from back stab receptacles.
I should be promoting those things and maybe #14 as well.

Just why the heck did they take FPE panels off the market? We should lobby to bring those back. :grin: :grin:

Stab locks forever!!!!:grin: :grin:

i said that every year we did resi service...cut every corner you can guys...just job security:D

[ItsHot]

Just finished a house in a jurisdiction that would not allow any #14 in resi construction. I figured I may as well do all 20's since they make us use #12.

It is kinda sad and frustrating to not be able to run #14 for smokes or some lighting circuits. 20 on smokes??? Talking about overkill.

[jaylectricity]

20 on smokes??? Talking about overkill.

I know this is reverse of my general philosophy on this subject, but what's the big deal?

Just put the smokes on the same circuit as... well put them on the same... you know.. well, put them on the same circuit as ANYTHING!

Put 'em on the dishwasher circuit.

[Minuteman]

20 on smokes??? Talking about overkill.
Why, just put the smokes on with one of the bed circuits.

[bikeindy]

Now that you mention it I don't know why I should care either. Much of my work comes from back stab receptacles.I should be promoting those things and maybe #14 as well.

Just why the heck did they take FPE panels off the market? We should lobby to bring those back. :grin: :grin:
Stab locks forever!!!!:grin: :grin:

Thanks for not answering the question. i see by your post that you have a size issue. I fixed it here.

[LarryFine]

The question calls for generalizing when the answer depends on specifics. First, presuming we're talking about residential wiring, I like separating lights and fans from receptacles, which is no more expensive when the area calls for more than a single circuit anyway.

Then I choose the ampacity for each circuit based on the area and likely loads. For typical bedroom/bathroom/closet/hallway lighting, one 15a is often enough for a small house, two 15a circuits for a larger one, etc. I rarely use 20a circuits for lighting.

Then, I might use a single 15a circuit for a smaller house's bedroom-area receptacle circuit, a 20a if it's bigger, or two 15's, or even two 20's if the house is huge. I like to do the same for other areas, like living-rooms, dens, etc.

To me, lighting circuit loads are usually predictable, whereas you never know what someone might plug into a receptacle. Even at the same VA per sq.ft., fewer 20a circuits can handle one large load, such as the infamous vacuum cleaner, and often every light is on when the vacuuming is being done.

[growler]

i said that every year we did resi service...cut every corner you can guys...just job security:D


Eric, now that I think about it this recession may be my fault. Why did I have to use all those quality parts when there were perfectly good knock-offs made in China. :grin: :grin:

[bikeindy]

Why, just put the smokes on with one of the bed circuits.

shoot it is a 20 amp circuit put the whole house on it unless otherwise required by code. 20 amps is the magic electrical circuit it will carry all.

[emahler]

Eric, now that I think about it this recession may be my fault. Why did I have to use all those quality parts when there were perfectly good knock-offs made in China. :grin: :grin:

i say this only half joking...but you are correct...

we don't have moving parts in most of what we do...if we do the job right, it will last 40 yrs...if we do it half right, it'll still last 20 yrs...we screw ourselves in the long run....

frizbee, good call on the replacement:D

[Minuteman]

shoot it is a 20 amp circuit put the whole house on it unless otherwise required by code. 20 amps is the magic electrical circuit it will carry all.
Dude, I can't use 14. No point in running a 20 amp JUST for smokes.

[bikeindy]

The question calls for generalizing when the answer depends on specifics. First, presuming we're talking about residential wiring, I like separating lights and fans from receptacles, which is no more expensive when the area calls for more than a single circuit anyway.

Then I choose the ampacity for each circuit based on the area and likely loads. For typical bedroom/bathroom/closet/hallway lighting, one 15a is often enough for a small house, two 15a circuits for a larger one, etc. I rarely use 20a circuits for lighting.

Then, I might use a single 15a circuit for a smaller house's bedroom-area receptacle circuit, a 20a if it's bigger, or two 15's, or even two 20's if the house is huge. I like to do the same for other areas, like living-rooms, dens, etc.

To me, lighting circuit loads are usually predictable, whereas you never know what someone might plug into a receptacle. Even at the same VA per sq.ft., fewer 20a circuits can handle one large load, such as the infamous vacuum cleaner, and often every light is on when the vacuuming is being done.

I guess you're no 20 amper Larry. And now that we are saving daylight you can turn off the lights when you vacuume.

[quogueelectric]

20 on smokes??? Talking about overkill.
Smokes have to be on the master bedroor lighting ckt in my neck of the woods so it will be noticed and fixed quickly if there is a problem. I am not saying I dont use 14 wire I am saying I dont have to like it. I use 14 in my own house but I am using it for light loads like Fridge/dishwasher 14/3, Microwave/range hood. Lightly loaded dedicated ckts. You asked and I answered if you dont like the answer other than yours dont ask any more.

[bikeindy]

Dude, I can't use 14. No point in running a 20 amp JUST for smokes.
I know I know I feel for you.

[ItsHot]

Why are all vacum cleaners now rated at 12 amps?

[LarryFine]

Why are all vacum cleaners now rated at 12 amps?
In case they're left on for 3 hours? (80% of 15a) :D

[480sparky]

i say this only half joking...but you are correct...

we don't have moving parts in most of what we do...if we do the job right, it will last 40 yrs...if we do it half right, it'll still last 20 yrs...we screw ourselves in the long run....

frizbee, good call on the replacement:D

If we do it half right, we'll never get a Certificate of Occupancy!

[ItsHot]

In case they're left on for 3 hours? (80% of 15a) :D "Good answer"!

[emahler]

If we do it half right, we'll never get a Certificate of Occupancy!
you wanna bet?:D

[growler]

If we do it half right, we'll never get a Certificate of Occupancy!


And I though George Bush said " No child left behind".:grin: :grin:

[emahler]

And I though George Bush said " No child left behind".:grin: :grin:

maybe, but Hillary said "It takes a Village":D

[480sparky]

you wanna bet?:D

So your inspectors let it go when half your job is done incorrectly?

[emahler]

So your inspectors let it go when half your job is done incorrectly?

i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...

[480sparky]

i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...

Your words were:

...if we do it half right, it'll still last 20 yrs....

Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but it something is half right, then the other half is wrong.

And, if you've done something that is 90% wrong, you need to hang up your tool belt, especially if it gets inspected.

And if the inspector passes something that is 90% wrong, God help those customers.

[jaylectricity]

Smokes have to be on the master bedroor lighting ckt in my neck of the woods so it will be noticed and fixed quickly if there is a problem.

Doesn't the code require battery back-up smokes? Does your neck of the woods allow straight AC smokes?

That was the purpose of making the code require battery back-ups. If the battery goes, the AC chirps...if the AC goes, the battery chirps.

[emahler]

Your words were:



Now keep in mind, I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but it something is half right, then the other half is wrong.

And, if you've done something that is 90% wrong, you need to hang up your tool belt, especially if it gets inspected.

And if the inspector passes something that is 90% wrong, God help those customers.

i don't disagree...my primary point was, we don't even have to do a perfect job and it will last for a long time...meaning we don't have all the repair/maintenance work that the plumbing and hvac trades have...

[quogueelectric]

And I though George Bush said " No child left behind".:grin: :grin:
No he said no child left a DIME.

[brantmacga]

i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

in a typical <2k 3 bed home, i have the following;

15A - 2 guest beds - afci
15A - Master bed - afci
15A - bedroom lights, smokes, - afci
15A - lights
15A - lights
15A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep
15A - overhead door opener, doorbell, attic lights, etc..
15A - dishwasher
15A - microwave
15A - refrigerator
15A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath
20A - dining/nook receps
___________________

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.

[growler]

i didn't say 'half correct'...i said 'half right' (i was trying not to say 'half assed')....but to answer your question, depends on the day, the inspector and the contractor...i've seen things 90% incorrect get passed...

It's all clear to me now we need more incompetence in this country to save the economy. If we didn't have an idiot in the white house we wouldn't have a war and the defense industry would be unemployed. If auto manufacturers built a decent car most of the auto mechanics would be out of a job. If any of the crap imported from China were ment to last then Wal Mart would be out of business.

The very last thing we need are professionals doing quality work. It's so simple you would think Warren Buffet would have though of it.

[quogueelectric]

Doesn't the code require battery back-up smokes? Does your neck of the woods allow straight AC smokes?

That was the purpose of making the code require battery back-ups. If the battery goes, the AC chirps...if the AC goes, the battery chirps.
Yes battery backup 120v 3wire smokes and co detector Must Have LED Number display like the homeowner needs to know how many ppm co is dangerous. He only needs to know alarm BAD no alarm GOOD . When you change the batterys every 6 months like you are supposed to guess what No Chirp!!

[quogueelectric]

i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

in a typical <2k 3 bed home, i have the following;

15A - 2 guest beds - afci
15A - Master bed - afci
15A - bedroom lights, smokes, - afci
15A - lights
15A - lights
15A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep
15A - overhead door opener, doorbell, attic lights, etc..
15A - dishwasher
15A - microwave
15A - refrigerator
15A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath
20A - dining/nook receps
___________________

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.
Come on now How much more labor to wire a house in 12?? Ill give you a 500$ diference and based on the homes in my area are in the 1-500 million dollar range I dont think it is a tough sell to go for 12 wire.

[Minuteman]

i use 14 in every residential job, and i save mucho$$$$. i don't know where some of you get the idea that it will take many more home runs, labor, etc. . . but that has not been true in my experience. also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.

that's it for the 120v stuff, i may have missed one or two, but i don't see any extra home runs that had to be pulled because of using 14ga. even w/ 12ga i would split the bedrooms like i do. the joints are easier to make, the devices can be backstabbed. its a no-brainer. the material cost difference on this job would be around $150-$200; the labor difference is more significant.

Just did a 3 bed home

20A - 2 guest beds - afci
20A - Master bed + smokes - afci
20A - lights & Doorbell
20A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep, overhead door opener, attic lights, etc
20A - dishwasher/disposal
20A - microwave
20A - refrigerator
20A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps, dining/nook receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath


You have 17 HRs, I have 13, and all of mine are 12/3 except Bedrooms and Garage (panel is in garage).

P.S. I would NEVER back stab. Been on TO MANY service calls. It's a no brainer.

[jaylectricity]

Yes battery backup 120v 3wire smokes and co detector Must Have LED Number display like the homeowner needs to know how many ppm co is dangerous. He only needs to know alarm BAD no alarm GOOD . When you change the batterys every 6 months like you are supposed to guess what No Chirp!!

So then what was your point about putting the smokes on the master bedroom circuit to keep them conspicuous? Like you just said, if you change the batteries there will be no chirp...but if you don't there WILL be a chirp to remind you.

[brantmacga]

Just did a 3 bed home

20A - 2 guest beds - afci
20A - Master bed + smokes - afci
20A - lights & Doorbell
20A - garage & outside receps on gfci recep, overhead door opener, attic lights, etc
20A - dishwasher/disposal
20A - microwave
20A - refrigerator
20A - living rm, hall receps, etc. . (usually about 15 +/- receps)
20A - kitchen receps, dining/nook receps
20A - kitchen receps
20A - washing machine
20A - guest bath
20A - master bath


You have 17 HRs, I have 13, and all of mine are 12/3 except Bedrooms and Garage (panel is in garage).

P.S. I would NEVER back stab. Been on TO MANY service calls. It's a no brainer.

the difference in home runs is not because i use 14ga, that's just how i prefer to do them.

i have always backstabbed and had a total of ZERO callbacks because of a failed connection, nor have i ever had a service call for someone else's backstabbed connection failing. you must have monkeys installing the receptacles up there. :)

the labor difference, including rough & trim, is around 3-4 hrs.

[Minuteman]

If we didn't have an idiot in the white house
Come on, that's a lot to ask for. At best, we have had maybe 5 non idiots in our whole history as a nation. One might even say that the top 3 running now are all poised for idiot status. At the very least, for now - in the opinion of somebody of the opposite party. :grin:

[Minuteman]

the difference in home runs is not because i use 14ga, that's just how i prefer to do them.

i have always backstabbed and had a total of ZERO callbacks because of a failed connection, nor have i ever had a service call for someone else's backstabbed connection failing. you must have monkeys installing the receptacles up there. :)

the labor difference, including rough & trim, is around 3-4 hrs.
You also install one more AFCI then do I (until the '08 kicks in).

As far as the backstabed failing, they will - just wait. It's not the installation, it's the poor design of the recep. :D

[mivey]

The main difference between the 20 ampers and the 15's is 5 amps.Let's see...five from zero...no wait...carry the one...no, 2 becomes a 1, carry the 10...hold on...20 minus,no...........I'll have to get back to you on that.

[quogueelectric]

It's not just the cost of materials...it's the extra labor to deal with the 12 wire. If you have to make up every single box with 12 wire it takes longer and wears down the workers faster. Plus you have to account for box fill. So you have to buy deeper boxes or have more box locations which is also more labor.

14 wire is for some things, 12 wire is for others, 10 is for a few things, etc...
Poor baby got a blister devicing out 12 wire OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I feel your pain.

[jaylectricity]

Poor baby got a blister devicing out 12 wire OOOOOOOOOOOOOOH I feel your pain.


I have sensitive hands. Haha...

[quogueelectric]

Me too, I've rewired a bunch of old apartments that were like that, usually the ancient BX or K&T that served the entire apartment. I'm sure you see this all the time as you're from New England too.

Usually what I see is that the only other circuits might be for the furnace, and maybe if someone was smart they added another circuit for the kitchen counter or fridge, but not very often.
Yeah that is sooooooooooo safe you are really winning me over with that argument. Why not just put everything on one circuit that is a great Idea., Obviosly you dont hold license or insurance. Keep trying.

[mdshunk]

Obviosly you dont hold license or insurance. Keep trying.
That must make it really rough for him to get back and fourth to work.

[jaylectricity]

Yeah that is sooooooooooo safe you are really winning me over with that argument. Why not just put everything on one circuit that is a great Idea., Obviosly you dont hold license or insurance. Keep trying.

As a fellow, may I advise you to put the bottle down?

[quogueelectric]

So then what was your point about putting the smokes on the master bedroom circuit to keep them conspicuous? Like you just said, if you change the batteries there will be no chirp...but if you don't there WILL be a chirp to remind you.
It is called TOWN code as in they are the AHJ for me.WHY you want to learn them??? Go ahead on YOUR job. Let me know how that works out for you JAY. edited for spelling cause it bothered Jay.

[jaylectricity]

It is called TOWN code as in they are the AHD for me.WHY you want to learn them??? Go ahead on YOUR job. Let me know how that works out for you JAY.

I'm going on common sense...the written word of another usually agrees.

Also you typed "AHD" in your excitement to put me down when you meant "AHJ" so why don't you calm down?

[mdshunk]

Also you typed "AHD" in your excitement to put me down when you meant "AHJ" so why don't you calm down?
Late at night tiredness starts to get to you. I'm certainly guilty. All I have at my house to make a drink could only make Red Bull and Listerine bomb shot, and I think that would be pretty gross. I think other people's houses might be better supplied... obviously.

[e57]

MY WORD! No idea a topic like this would be like launching a brick trough a window... Or better said - at a hornets nest.... :roll:

[Okie Sparky]

also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.


Why would anyone in their right mind put smokes on a AFCI circuit. These are life safety devices. And should not lose power due to a "nuisance" trip. They should also be on their own circuit, so Mr. HO isn't overloading the circuit with some new fangled gizmo and tripping the breaker. I know what the NEC says. But the NEC has been wrong before. Who do you think is pushing the AFCI breaker code? Put the smokes on a 15A circuit if a 20A is too big (when I was first in business and "had" to wire new houses this is what I did).

[iwire]

Why would anyone in their right mind put smokes on a AFCI circuit.

Because they are professionals and follow the NEC. Under the 2005 and 2008 NEC smokes have to be on an AFCI circuit.

I know what the NEC says. But the NEC has been wrong before.

Wrong or not we have to follow the code.

Who do you think is pushing the AFCI breaker code?

We know and it does not change anything.

[Minuteman]

also, you can't put the smokes on just any 20A circuit. they have to be on an AFCI circuit.


Why would anyone in their right mind put smokes on a AFCI circuit. These are life safety devices. And should not lose power due to a "nuisance" trip. They should also be on their own circuit, so Mr. HO isn't overloading the circuit with some new fangled gizmo and tripping the breaker. I know what the NEC says. But the NEC has been wrong before. Who do you think is pushing the AFCI breaker code? Put the smokes on a 15A circuit if a 20A is too big (when I was first in business and "had" to wire new houses this is what I did).

Smokes are required to have a battery back up, so a nuisance trip should have no effect on them. You do pull permits don't you? Right or wrong in our opinion won't boil coffee, following the AHJ's interpretation of the NEC is the only way to get the inspection passed and a CO.

[ElectricianJeff]

Local Code here requires #12 so I use very little #14. I only use it when extending or refeeding existing old circuts.

I get the impression from some of the earlier posts that #14 is easier to pull and trim. I can see it being a quicker if you backstab but I only backstab GFCI's. My question is, if you don't backstab is #14 really that much of a time saver to pull and trim versus #12?

Just curious

Jeff

[Rewire]

I have seen jobs here that #12 was ran to the switch and #14 was ran from the switch to the light and the circuit was on a 20A breaker.

[aline]

I've seen entire apartments supplied with one 15 amp circuit. Now that may not be desirable, but I have no problem running 15 amp circuits for living rooms and lighting.

Right now I have a computer, two sound mixers, DSL modem, printer, monitor, speakers, musical keyboard, bass amplifier, DVD player, VCR, cable box, stereo, television, XBox, lamp, and fan on a single 15 amp circuit. I've had them all on at the same time allowing for many people to entertain themselves in various ways and have never had a problem.
Are these Federal Pacific Breakers? :)

[jaylectricity]

Are these Federal Pacific Breakers? :)

Why yes...yes they are.

[LarryFine]

i have always backstabbed and had a total of ZERO callbacks because of a failed connection, nor have i ever had a service call for someone else's backstabbed connection failing. you must have monkeys installing the receptacles up there. :)
I've never had any of my work become a problem with backstabbing, because I never let my monkeys do it.

On many a service call, I have pulled receptacles out that left the stripped ends pinting at me like 4-prong plugs.

[growler]

On many a service call, I have pulled receptacles out that left the stripped ends pinting at me like 4-prong plugs.


I have had to replace every receptacle in a room that was back stabbed.
I don't now if this was just a bad bach or what.

I go on many service calls where there are one or two that have gone bad in the house.

They do make for repeat business.:grin: :grin:

[rick boyd]

make the circuit fit the demand , over kill is not the best, or we would use 8 guage for everything

a half horse motor on a 50 amp circuit is not protecting the motor
even though the circuit is protected by its breaker

[Rewire]

I've never had any of my work become a problem with backstabbing, because I never let my monkeys do it.

On many a service call, I have pulled receptacles out that left the stripped ends pinting at me like 4-prong plugs.
I don't allow it not because it is not just a human error problem but a mechanical one as well.We do alot of service work so I see this often even in recent construction.

[chris500]

In some areas it is required by law to use nothing smaller than #12.

One evening I had a call from an inspector from one of these areas. It seems his daughter was having a home built in an area that allows #14, but he had no idea of this. He walked in and saw the #14 and flipped out. As I had built a good reputation with him over the years, I was the first one who he called.

After I calmed him down and explained to him that it is ok and NOT against code in the area the house was being built. He seemed to finally get it, but he wasn't real happy about it.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I say the residential codes are good enough for 95% of the population.

[peter d]

Yeah that is sooooooooooo safe you are really winning me over with that argument. Why not just put everything on one circuit that is a great Idea., Obviosly you dont hold license or insurance. Keep trying.

:roll:

Please actually read what I say before you make ignorant, stupid comments. Where did I say that I wired apartments with one 15 amp circuit? :confused:

I said that I REWIRED apartments where the original wiring was BX or K&T and there was only one 15A circuit, like they wired most houses that were built back in the early 1900's. When I rewired them I brought them up to the current code that was in force at the time.

Oh, and I have 2 licenses in 2 states and I carry insurance.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

:roll:

Please actually read what I say before you make ignorant, stupid comments. Where did I say that I wired apartments with one 15 amp circuit? :confused:

I said that I REWIRED apartments where the original wiring was BX or K&T and there was only one 15A circuit, like they wired most houses that were built back in the early 1900's. When I rewired them I brought them up to the current code that was in force at the time.

Oh, and I have 2 licenses in 2 states and I carry insurance.

Well, if you consider RI a state... :grin:

[peter d]

Well, if you consider RI a state... :grin:

Sadly, it's rapidly going down the drain with a failing economy, rampant gov't corruption, and massive amounts of foreclosures.

[growler]

Oh, and I have 2 licenses in 2 states


I have more licenses than that.

I have a drivers License
I have a hunting license
I have a fishing license
and my dog has a dog license ( why he needs a license to be a dog I'll never understand, I thought he was born one ). :grin: :grin: :grin:

[electricmanscott]

In some areas it is required by law to use nothing smaller than #12.


The reason being some dumb ass half witted narrow minded I know better than the rest of the world where #14 and 15 amp circuits are just fine electrician found a way to get it passed. :rolleyes:

[electricmanscott]

To Jaylectrcity....Being a Mass guy you should know that smoke detectors are required to be fed from a branch circuit that also supplies other equipment.

Maybe you know this but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

[quogueelectric]

:roll:

Please actually read what I say before you make ignorant, stupid comments. Where did I say that I wired apartments with one 15 amp circuit? :confused:

I said that I REWIRED apartments where the original wiring was BX or K&T and there was only one 15A circuit, like they wired most houses that were built back in the early 1900's. When I rewired them I brought them up to the current code that was in force at the time.

Oh, and I have 2 licenses in 2 states and I carry insurance.
Please excuse my Ignorance and Stupidity I misunderstood the post. After rereading I more clearly understand your intent.
The people who are trained residential for most of thier career are going to favor 14 wire it is cheaper faster to install and easier to handle. Serves the purpose with few problems in most modern instalations. It is code compliant why not love it.
The people who were trained commercial/industrial used mostly 12 wire for branch ckts for duplex receptacles and lighting. They probably only see 14 nm on the weekend moonlight jobs. They are probably going to feel it is cheesy.
They are not looking to hurt anyones feelings that is a 15 amp lover they are just used to a higher standard and feel that anything less than a 12 wire 20 amp circuit is just wrong except for control ckts.
BTW I will be taking my CT E-1 exam shortly so there. Lots of work going on in the Bridgeport area and I mean lots.

[electricmanscott]

The people who were trained commercial/industrial used mostly 12 wire for branch ckts for duplex receptacles and lighting. They probably only see 14 nm on the weekend moonlight jobs. They are probably going to feel it is cheesy.
.


So 10 pages of nonsense and the best argument for not using #14 and 15 amp ciruits is ignorance? :-?

I'm sold. :grin:

[peter d]

BTW I will be taking my CT E-1 exam shortly so there. Lots of work going on in the Bridgeport area and I mean lots.

Good for you. :)

I have no desire to be involved with anything in or near Bridgeport, but I wish you all the best with that.

[bikeindy]

They are not looking to hurt anyones feelings that is a 15 amp lover they are just used to a higher standard and feel that anything less than a 12 wire 20 amp circuit is just wrong except for control ckts.
BTW I will be taking my CT E-1 exam shortly so there. Lots of work going on in the Bridgeport area and I mean lots.

Man I have done all the kind of work you talk about and more in the electrical/ electronics field. #12 is not a "higher standard" and saying it is, is plainly a cop out to not really understanding how to design a good electrical system for a home. In industrial and commercial it makes sence to run #12 for everything the runs are longer and tend to carry a higher load anyway, not to mention it is most likely spec to do so. If that is your reasoning why not pipe the whole house and run stranded. They do that in some areas. I am still waiting to find out how many runs you plan on that 2000 SF home so I can do a comparison.

[quogueelectric]

Man I have done all the kind of work you talk about and more in the electrical/ electronics field. #12 is not a "higher standard" and saying it is, is plainly a cop out to not really understanding how to design a good electrical system for a home. In industrial and commercial it makes sence to run #12 for everything the runs are longer and tend to carry a higher load anyway, not to mention it is most likely spec to do so. If that is your reasoning why not pipe the whole house and run stranded. They do that in some areas. I am still waiting to find out how many runs you plan on that 2000 SF home so I can do a comparison.
Some guys I have worked with have piped their whole house out then they have come to me to try to figure out how to get through a residential inspection that they just failed.
You are entitled to your opinion as also I am entitled to my opinion.
I was roping houses in the early 70s in alluminum when I was 12 working for my Father. Everyone thought that was fine then.
I dont think that now. Opinions are subject to change all the time.
My opinions are based on my real life experiences of pulling many melted duplex receptacles out of a wall that were backstabed in 14 at the brink of fire. I have never seen a receptacle looped in 12 and melted unless someone forgot to tighten a screw which was obviosly backed out.

[jim dungar]

I am amazed how almost every "hater" of #14 always mentions back-stabs as part of their reasoning.

Is the real problem the size of the conductor or the connection?

[stickboy1375]

IMO, almost every failure was due to human error... either using the screws or backstabbed...

[peter d]

I am amazed how almost every "hater" of #14 always mentions back-stabs as part of their reasoning.


Funny how that works, isn't it?

I call that a breakdown of common sense and logic. ;)

[quogueelectric]

I am amazed how almost every "hater" of #14 always mentions back-stabs as part of their reasoning.

Is the real problem the size of the conductor or the connection?
I am not a 14 hater I am a 12 lover There is a difference.

[roger]

The truth be known, most 14 haters simply have no understanding of residential circuits and how they are lightly loaded.

I always hear the horror stories but, after 35 years in the trade I have yet to see #14 causing these problems they talk about. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Roger

[iwire]

I am not a 14 hater I am a 12 lover There is a difference.

LOL :D

That was a good one.

[bikeindy]

I have never seen a receptacle looped in 12 and melted unless someone forgot to tighten a screw which was obviosly backed out.


Let me help you see, I have some photos here...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1181-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1180.jpg

That is #12 and the screws were tight, the breaker had not tripped and this was tied to lighting in the kitchen back hall and bathroom, this receptacle was in the garage with a whole lot of outdoor Christmas lights on it. Now thats a great design for electrical garage receptacle on the same 20 amp circuit as the lights just inside the door.

Moderators note: Edited to fix img link

[quogueelectric]

Dont hate the comercial electrician because he puts 12 wire in according to the spec. Hate the Architect/E.Engineer that put it there.

[peter d]

duplicate.........

[bikeindy]

Dont hate the comercial electrician because he puts 12 wire in according to the spec. Hate the Architect/E.Engineer that put it there.


WHAT!? I think you got some bad milk dude.

[peter d]

Dont hate the comercial electrician because he puts 12 wire in according to the spec.

What I hate is the fact that some people think that using all #12 magically makes for a "better" residential premises wiring system based on myths and misconceptions.

What I hate is when people do things just for the sake of doing them, without thinking them through or thinking about why they are doing something.

[quogueelectric]

Let me help you see, I have some photos here...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1181-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1180.jpg

That is #12 and the screws were tight, the breaker had not tripped and this was tied to lighting in the kitchen back hall and bathroom, this receptacle was in the garage with a whole lot of outdoor Christmas lights on it. Now thats a great design for electrical garage receptacle on the same 20 amp circuit as the lights just inside the door.

Moderators note: Edited to fix img link
Did anyone but me notice that the screws were wrapped backwards on this recepacle?? Bottom wrap looks like it is halfway out other one is too badly burned to tell but the weakest link is going to generate the most heat.

[BryanMD]

Let me help you see, I have some photos here...

That is #12 and the screws were tight, the breaker had not tripped and this was tied to lighting in the kitchen back hall and bathroom, this receptacle was in the garage with a whole lot of outdoor Christmas lights on it. Now thats a great design for electrical garage receptacle on the same 20 amp circuit as the lights just inside the door.

Do you know what caused it to melt?

I doubt it's related, but that box is awfully far back from the GWB -no mudring etc.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Sadly, it's rapidly going down the drain with a failing economy, rampant gov't corruption, and massive amounts of foreclosures.

At least you still have a governor.

[quogueelectric]

At least you still have a governor.
Jay Leno is going to have a ball with this.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

So 10 pages of nonsense and the best argument for not using #14 and 15 amp ciruits is ignorance? :-?

I'm sold. :grin:

It's not nonsense. It's inconsequential banter.

Personally, I favor permanent lighting on a 14 awg 15a circuit, and 12 awg 20a circuit for receptacles.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Let me help you see, I have some photos here...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1181-1.jpg http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r246/bikeindy/IMG_1180.jpg

That is #12 and the screws were tight, the breaker had not tripped and this was tied to lighting in the kitchen back hall and bathroom, this receptacle was in the garage with a whole lot of outdoor Christmas lights on it. Now thats a great design for electrical garage receptacle on the same 20 amp circuit as the lights just inside the door.

Moderators note: Edited to fix img link

It's not clear from that picture that the guage of the wire had anything to do with the failure. I'd say it's more likely the failure began with the extention cord, which was probably overloaded, and the melting began with the cord cap.

[bikeindy]

It's not clear from that picture that the guage of the wire had anything to do with the failure.

Exactly!


I'd say it's more likely the failure began with the extention cord, which was probably overloaded, and the melting began with the cord cap.

Sure or maybe the wire was slightly loose, as someone pointed out the are wrapped backward, maybe a homeowner. My point is that #12 didn't stop the problem, it comes down to craftmanship.

[bikeindy]

Do you know what caused it to melt?

I doubt it's related, but that box is awfully far back from the GWB -no mudring etc.

5 million Christmas lights were the problem. we fixed all the issues with the box.

[jaylectricity]

To Jaylectrcity....Being a Mass guy you should know that smoke detectors are required to be fed from a branch circuit that also supplies other equipment.

Maybe you know this but thought I'd throw it out there anyway.

To tell you the truth I am a little ignorant on the MA changes to the NEC. I remember being taught that we should put the smokes on a downstairs lighting circuit, but that was before the code required battery backups.

I'm gonna go to the code refresher course for the 2008 early this year and I will certainly put that on my agenda of questions to ask.

--------------------------------------------------------

On a separate note...since I've lived in MA I've been schooled on RI as being "mob-ridden" which might explain corruption.

Is there still a mob down there?

[quogueelectric]

To tell you the truth I am a little ignorant on the MA changes to the NEC. I remember being taught that we should put the smokes on a downstairs lighting circuit, but that was before the code required battery backups.

I'm gonna go to the code refresher course for the 2008 early this year and I will certainly put that on my agenda of questions to ask.

--------------------------------------------------------

On a separate note...since I've lived in MA I've been schooled on RI as being "mob-ridden" which might explain corruption.

Is there still a mob down there?
Nope they all moved to Scottsdale, AZ :wink: :wink: I dont see a single mobster left here in NY.

[hey_poolboy]

Man, go to work for a day and look what I miss.

I actually put the smokes on a 15A AFCI. That particular town has decided smokes must be on their own circuit. It's the only 15 in the box.

[e57]

What I hate is the fact that some people think that using all #12 magically makes for a "better" residential premises wiring system based on myths and misconceptions.


It will magically make it better at roughly 14.9 amps.... :D Been there.... Actually I was there today....

[cadpoint]

Now I watched this thread line go last night, for me its always enjoyable reading.
& I've seen this a few time, these thought provoking threads and still on.

I think you'll nailed it down... :).... OH and seems the second half of the hour is more productive ...

9:02 orginal post. "For all you "20 Ampers""
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1:26 Post 71
.... and still going

and really the fastest Thread I've ever witnessed, Keep Typing...

[brantmacga]

You also install one more AFCI then do I (until the '08 kicks in).

As far as the backstabed failing, they will - just wait. It's not the installation, it's the poor design of the recep. :D

yes, but i charge for that afci. . .


second. . . maybe i've just been lucky so far. :)

[geezer]

This most likely has been discussed before, but since it has come up in this thread and is related, I will ask. A couple of posts have mentioned using a 15A circuit for a microwave/vent hood unit. I have seen many of these units with 12.5A ratings. Would the branch circuit load limitations of 210.23 prohibit this cord connected, fastened in place appliance from being on a 15A circuit? (Code reference is from 2002 NEC)

[stickboy1375]

This most likely has been discussed before, but since it has come up in this thread and is related, I will ask. A couple of posts have mentioned using a 15A circuit for a microwave/vent hood unit. I have seen many of these units with 12.5A ratings. Would the branch circuit load limitations of 210.23 prohibit this cord connected, fastened in place appliance from being on a 15A circuit? (Code reference is from 2002 NEC)

Depends on if its a IBC (individual branch circuit) or a branch circuit suppling two or more outlets.

[ItsHot]

Come on, that's a lot to ask for. At best, we have had maybe 5 non idiots in our whole history as a nation. One might even say that the top 3 running now are all poised for idiot status. At the very least, for now - in the opinion of somebody of the opposite party. :grin:
The ones running now will give new meaning to "idiots", and over shadow all the clowns from the past!

[Minuteman]

I'm not a #14 hater or #12 lover. I really don't care. However, local code does. I have made some comments relative to how we install only #12 in residential - in most communities here.

My arguments about the #12 are not in defence of #12 being superior to #14, only that I can install #12 in a typical 1500 - 3000 ft/2 home for about the same costs as one can using both #14 & #12.

As far as backstabbing goes. I didn't like it when devices had #12 holes. I don't like it now.

[bikeindy]

I'm not a #14 hater or #12 lover. I really don't care. However, local code does. I have made some comments relative to how we install only #12 in residential - in most communities here.

My arguments about the #12 are not in defence of #12 being superior to #14, only that I can install #12 in a typical 1500 - 3000 ft/2 home for about the same costs as one can using both #14 & #12.

As far as backstabbing goes. I didn't like it when devices had #12 holes. I don't like it now.

Ok so I agree that the cost for mateials will be close to the same. here is how I see the outcome if you are to keep material cost the same.

A home has lets say 60 general purpose receptacles and a guy running #14 will use 6 circuits to supply them. To keep the cost the same in #12 you will have to use lets say 4 circuits for the same 60 receptacles. who has supplied the homeowner with more power?

the guy who ran 6 15 Amp receptacles supplied 90 Amps of power the guy who ran #12 supplied 80 Amps of power. I don't care about backstab or not you can wrap #14 wire it doesn't need to be stabbed.

This has been my point and if you really sit down and draw it out you can supply a homeowner with a better design and more power for the same price if you use #14 wire. It is MHO that people who live in areas that don't allow #14 to be run, need to step up and get it changed.

[mivey]

...a guy running #14 will use 6 circuits to supply them. To keep the cost the same in #12 you will have to use lets say 4 circuits...Isn't there some math missing? What about the cost of 2 more breakers, extra wire needed for the 2 extra home home runs, labor for two more home runs + hookup, more panel space (break panel cost into a $/space value)?

[Minuteman]

Isn't there some math missing? What about the cost of 2 more breakers, extra wire needed for the 2 extra home home runs, labor for two more home runs + hookup, more panel space (break panel cost into a $/space value)?
And, in the example given in posts 52 & 56 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=96803&page=6) you will see that there was a 4 circuit difference between using 14 & 12, verses 12 only.

[bikeindy]

Isn't there some math missing? What about the cost of 2 more breakers, extra wire needed for the 2 extra home home runs, labor for two more home runs + hookup, more panel space (break panel cost into a $/space value)?


do you want me to do all the math for you? I'm trying to keep it simple. but I will continue. Lets say that running the 4 homeruns and 60 receptacles used 1000' of #12. thats $276.00 today here in Indy. so it is the same in wire for the 60 receptacles and 4 home runs in #14 give or take a few feet thats $168.00 I think the cost of 2 more breakers, extra wire needed for the 2 extra home home runs, labor for two more home runs + hookup, more panel space might be $108.00 but not likely. Panel space? give me a break a 30/40 panel is $125 a 40/40 is $132.50 ou save by not buying tandems with the 40/40 so you more than make up the $7.50. But you will save on labor when you run the #14 due to the difference in difficulty of handling it.

Don't you get it yet I provided more power at less cost or even the same cost but I PROVIDED MORE POWER with #14.

[bikeindy]

And, in the example given in posts 52 & 56 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=96803&page=6) you will see that there was a 4 circuit difference between using 14 & 12, verses 12 only.


That was for the whole house my example is just the general purpose receptacles. If you want to get into lights I win in the power department there as well, But it is lighting do you need more power?

[Minuteman]

That was for the whole house my example is just the general purpose receptacles. If you want to get into lights I win in the power department there as well, But it is lighting do you need more power?
Total for the 14/12 = 285. Total for the 12 only = 260. But, that's okay, should the HO need MORE POWER... I would be glad to add additional #12 - for a respectable price. :grin:

[quogueelectric]

BTW I only put a max of 8 rec on a ckt 10 max if it saves a hr but 8 saves callbacks and irritated customers

[bikeindy]

Total for the 14/12 = 285. Total for the 12 only = 260. But, that's okay, should the HO need MORE POWER... I would be glad to add additional #12 - for a respectable price. :grin:


You see my point then, add your extra circuit and still fall 5 amps short. so for the ones who are #12 lovers and not forced to do it like you they have no arguement.:grin:

[wireman71]

What's "better" aside.. You can make up and trim #14 faster. Using stab back receps and switches you can cut serious time off a install as compared to using #12. Box fill allows you more #14 in the same box meaning you don't have to upsize and spend more on boxes. For properly designed systems I think #14 works just fine.

[quogueelectric]

What's "better" aside.. You can make up and trim #14 faster. Using stab back receps and switches you can cut serious time off a install as compared to using #12. Box fill allows you more #14 in the same box meaning you don't have to upsize and spend more on boxes. For properly designed systems I think #14 works just fine.
You guys just dont get it 12 runs cooler and has much more ampacity for a negligable price. Never have to worry about it pushing designs to the max is what you are preaching look at the space shuttle. One bad O ring and Kaboom I always use deep boxes anyway. Why do you feel the need to convert us 12 lovers anyway?? I think we should call Dr Phil. Let go of your anger. BTW a good commercial guy will install 12 just as fast as 14. Book on recepticle installations is .2 hrs which is 12 min give ME a break if I cant install and trim a rec in 12 min I will just burn my license.

[mivey]

do you want me to do all the math for you?Yes please. I'm feeling lazy.:grin: Would you guess an extra 1.5-1.75 labor hours for the extra runs & hook-up? I'm guessing the panel space is worth 40 feet of #14? Panel space is like real estate, it has value. Let the 2 AFCI's be around $30 each. Guess an extra 50 feet of #14 at say another $9.50. That comes out to about 40% more than what you calculated

...But you will save on labor when you run the #14 due to the difference in difficulty of handling it.I'll give you $15 for that. It's not that big of a difference (0.004 labor hours per LF).

Don't you get it yet I provided more power at less cost or even the same cost but I PROVIDED MORE POWER with #14.It looks like more power at more cost to me ($135 more). The #12 guy can also handle larger single loads.

[edit: typo]

[Chamuit]

Howdy Folks!

Seems to me that a lot of the talk seems to personal preference rather than perhaps application. #14 is there for a reason. I believe the whole idea (of branch circuits really) is to limit the number of openings (or load) on a circuit so that when the breaker trips the whole house doesn't go out. Or, when you have to service an outlet or switch, the whole house doesn't have to be turned off.

I'm sure a lot of you, like myself, walk through and talk through an electrical job with your customer. Because you want to make a proper and adequate application of wiring for their needs.

Side note: People keep mentioning the extra labor to pull A home run. Don't y'all pull more than one at a time.:D

That's my two cents. I'll give you change is that's too much:roll:

[mivey]

...Using stab back receps and switches you can cut serious time off a install as compared to using #12...Can't argue with that. I just refuse to use the back stabbers. I wouldn't use them in my own home and I will not use them in anyone else's. I just don't feel safe with them. Maybe just being paranoid but I sleep better.

[mivey]

Howdy Folks!Howdy...I believe the whole idea (of branch circuits really) is to limit the number of openings (or load) on a circuit so that when the breaker trips the whole house doesn't go out. Or, when you have to service an outlet or switch, the whole house doesn't have to be turned off...I see this as pretty much a non-issue in a residential setting. Also, I would never lay things out so "the whole house goes out"Side note: People keep mentioning the extra labor to pull A home run. Don't y'all pull more than one at a timeI'm not going to admit that because it would not help my argument:grin:

[edit: I've tried the new two-bladed screwdriver that allows me to hook up two breakers at once but I just can't figure it out:grin:]

[Chamuit]

Originally Posted by mivey

[edit: I've tried the new two-bladed screwdriver that allows me to hook up two breakers at once but I just can't figure it out]

LMAO


Originally Posted by Chamuit
...I believe the whole idea (of branch circuits really) is to limit the number of openings (or load) on a circuit so that when the breaker trips the whole house doesn't go out. Or, when you have to service an outlet or switch, the whole house doesn't have to be turned off...

Originally Posted by mivey
I see this as pretty much a non-issue in a residential setting. Also, I would never lay things out so "the whole house goes out"

I guess what I am trying to say is that "lighter" 15amp circuits means that you limit the amount of openings affected when there is a problem.

[mivey]

I guess what I am trying to say is that "lighter" 15amp circuits means that you limit the amount of openings affected when there is a problem.I still don't see the problem in a residential setting.

[hardworkingstiff]

LMAO






I guess what I am trying to say is that "lighter" 15amp circuits means that you limit the amount of openings affected when there is a problem.

The whole idea is to not have problems. Using #12 (IMO) reduces the chances of problems.

[hardworkingstiff]

Ok so I agree that the cost for mateials will be close to the same. here is how I see the outcome if you are to keep material cost the same.

A home has lets say 60 general purpose receptacles and a guy running #14 will use 6 circuits to supply them. To keep the cost the same in #12 you will have to use lets say 4 circuits for the same 60 receptacles. who has supplied the homeowner with more power?

the guy who ran 6 15 Amp receptacles supplied 90 Amps of power the guy who ran #12 supplied 80 Amps of power. I don't care about backstab or not you can wrap #14 wire it doesn't need to be stabbed.

This has been my point and if you really sit down and draw it out you can supply a homeowner with a better design and more power for the same price if you use #14 wire. It is MHO that people who live in areas that don't allow #14 to be run, need to step up and get it changed.

I thought we all agreed the "whole" house is lightly loaded and there are just a few receptacles that get the majority of the loads. The point I've made (and still believe) is that I would rather have fewer circuits that could handle 33% more current (in each circuit).

[hardworkingstiff]

I see nothing wrong in running 14 circuits. I just believe having 12 circuits for receptacles gives you better power for concentrated loads.

I would still use 14 for lighting circuits. Lighting circuits are mulitiple light loads as compared to receptacles being more likely to have a few heavier loads.

[electricmanscott]

You guys just dont get it 12 runs cooler and has much more ampacity for a negligable price. Never have to worry about it pushing designs to the max is what you are preaching look at the space shuttle. One bad O ring and Kaboom I always use deep boxes anyway. Why do you feel the need to convert us 12 lovers anyway?? I think we should call Dr Phil. Let go of your anger. BTW a good commercial guy will install 12 just as fast as 14. Book on recepticle installations is .2 hrs which is 12 min give ME a break if I cant install and trim a rec in 12 min I will just burn my license.


Yeah, we don't get it. :rolleyes: Why do you hacks use #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles . :rolleyes:

There have been exactly ZERO convincing arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.

[emahler]

Yeah, we don't get it. :rolleyes: Why do you hacks us #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles . :rolleyes:

There have been exactly ZERO concinving arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.

do you upsize your neutral? or are you just a more expensive hack?:D

[brantmacga]

And, in the example given in posts 52 & 56 (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=96803&page=6) you will see that there was a 4 circuit difference between using 14 & 12, verses 12 only.

not so fast!!!!!!!!!

i clearly stated in a reply to you that the use of 14awg DID NOT result in my installation having more circuits than your 12awg; the reason for the extra circuits was personal preference. an example, you put the dining/nook receps on a kitchen counter sabc where as i put them on their own; and i split bedroom lighting/smokes off on their own circuit so if the receps trip, you still have light. again, not required, but just one more way i'm better than you. :D :D :D

seriously though, that was such a hildabeast move to twist the facts like that. :)

[Minuteman]

Yeah, we don't get it. :rolleyes: Why do you hacks us #12 anyway?
Hi, my name is Michael, and I'm a hack. It has been 21 years since I used #14, and I have a twenty year #14 sobriety coin.

Hi Michael, keep coming back.

:roll:

[wirebender]

Hi, my name is Michael, and I'm a hack. It has been 21 years since I used #14, and I have a twenty year #14 sobriety coin.

Hi Michael, keep coming back.

:roll:

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?

[Minuteman]

not so fast!!!!!!!!!

i clearly stated in a reply to you that the use of 14awg DID NOT result in my installation having more circuits than your 12awg; the reason for the extra circuits was personal preference. an example, you put the dining/nook receps on a kitchen counter sabc where as i put them on their own;

Okay, I will give you that.

and i split bedroom lighting/smokes off on their own circuit so if the receps trip, you still have light. again, not required,

That's because, 2 beds on one 15amp circuit are more likely to trip than on a 20. :)

but just one more way i'm better than you. :D :D :D

Son, you gotta a lot a water to carry before you get even CLOSE to being as good as me.

seriously though, that was such a hildabeast move to twist the facts like that.
:wink:

[Rewire]

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?
Having coffee with Dr Bob

[Minuteman]

Hi, Michael, how's Bill?
Tony, we are supposed to be "anonymous", and I'm not supposed to mention that I have seen you at the meetings.

[cschmid]

It has been since for ever since I have used #14 so can I have some phone numbers so when I feel the need to run #14 I can call and get help..I don't want to be weak and stumble..I hate to be a #14 aholic again..It has been many years since I have used #14 please don't let me stumble and fall..:grin:

Lets get real man..we use what we need to when we need to..If I am doing light industrial all #12, residential receptacles are #12 and lights #14..any where some one who is not qualified is going to have the ability to work on it I make them #12..SO hack away man hack away with your low ball #14 as our power consumption increases and our demand grows let minimum everything..hack away..:grin:

Wow hope that does not get the natives restless..:grin: :D

[tryinghard]

A 15A circuit wired correctly in 14 is just great! Hands feel better at the end of the day, wire fill is simpler, finish walls are less impacted from wire fill issues, cost is less, and within it's load capacity there's nothing unsafe about it. Using the right product for a particular application does not have to be exaggerated and bigger is not better if ones emphasis is on correct application.

[mivey]

...Hands feel better at the end of the day...I've done both, never paid much attention to any difference....finish walls are less impacted from wire fill issues...What? Our walls are not that small where I come from. Maybe in Lilliput and Blefuscu it would matter......does not have to be exaggerated and bigger is not better...How else can we cook up something to debate?:grin:

[tryinghard]

I've done both, never paid much attention to any difference.What? Our walls are not that small where I come from...

How about 3 or 4 gang switch box with deco switches (bonded -grounded-of course); if you have installed these you'll know what I'm talking about regarding marking or damaging a finish wall.
How many #12's will you install in a 3 gang switch box with deco switches?

[mivey]

How about 3 or 4 gang switch box with deco switches (bonded -grounded-of course); if you have installed these you'll know what I'm talking about regarding marking or damaging a finish wall.
How many #12's will you install in a 3 gang switch box with deco switches?"How many #12's": As many as I need? I've installed 6 and 8 gang switches with #12. If the box is the right size, I dont have any problem. I'm not following your train of thought here.

deco? How are the art deco switches a problem? If you talking about the old stacked despar switches-I never had a problem. If you are talking about decora switches-never had problems with them either.

While I have scuffed a wall every now and then, I try to be careful. I don't see what the wire size has to do with that.

[quogueelectric]

Yeah, we don't get it. :rolleyes: Why do you hacks us #12 anyway? I use all #10 for lighting and #8 for receptacles . :rolleyes:

There have been exactly ZERO concinving arguments in this thread for using #12 over #14 other than prefference and false logic. The reality that some of you are ignoring is that there are a gazillion 15 amp branch circuits fed with # 14 that have been in use for god knows how long and are absolutley fine. Now that is a convincing argument.
Please DR Phil Intervention Please I'm begging you fix these 12 haters.

[480sparky]

Technically, the size of the decive has no bearing on box fill, only the presence of it.

But of course, some devices take up more space than others. GFIs and dimmers top the list.

[mivey]

...GFIs and dimmers top the list.I would agree about these two animals. It can get tight when adding to an old, under-sized box. I have changed out many old boxes just for that reason.

[mivey]

Please DR Phil Intervention Please I'm begging you fix these 12 haters.Tell me about it. I just thought of another reason I like #12 better. It can take more mechanical abuse than #14.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Don't you get it yet I provided more power at less cost or even the same cost but I PROVIDED MORE POWER with #14.

I'm gonna throw this in...

An even better argument than providing more power, is circuit diversity. I'd hold a safer installation argument to a higher regard than actual power provided.

I'd rather each room have 2 different 15a circuits serving receptacles. Smaller circuits but greater quantity make this easier.

4 15a circuits - 60 a

Ct 1 - 1/2 of livingroom, 1/2 of bedroom1
Ct 2 - 1/2 of bedroom 1 & 1/2 of bedroom 2
Ct 3 - 1/2 of bedroom 2 & 1/2 of bedroom 3
Ct 4 - 1/2 of bedroom 3 & 1/2 of livingroom

3 20a circuits - 60a

Ct 1 - Entire livingroom & 1/2 BR 1
Ct 2 - 1/2 BR 1 & Entire BR 2
Ct 3 - Entrie BR 3

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

"How many #12's": As many as I need? I've installed 6 and 8 gang switches with #12. If the box is the right size, I dont have any problem. I'm not following your train of thought here.

deco? How are the art deco switches a problem? If you talking about the old stacked despar switches-I never had a problem. If you are talking about decora switches-never had problems with them either.

While I have scuffed a wall every now and then, I try to be careful. I don't see what the wire size has to do with that.

Because sometimes the heavier guage wire makes it more difficult to drop kick the devices into the box. :grin:

[mivey]

Because sometimes the heavier guage wire makes it more difficult to drop kick the devices into the box. :grin:Research has shown that the more you fram away at the devices, the better they fit:grin:

[KentAT]

I'm just curious. I'm not an electrical contractor, but for those of you who are, would you use these new Hubbell SNAPConnect receptacles as a labor saving device or for another reason?

I mean, I've been reading that some say it takes more time to wire a receptacle using 12AWG than it does with 14AWG. Backwire, sidewire, loop around terminal, whatever. With these, whatever size you run to the box gets connected by wirenut to the 12AWG pigtail.

Would this product save enough money in labor to justify using them? Seems like pre-wiring the snap-in pigtail and then later just snapping it into the back of the receptacle would save time and headaches, but at a cost.

http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/Press/PDFS/H5225-SNAPConnect.pdf

My local supply house has these at:
SNAP6R1, solid pigtail = 1.92 (12AWG)
SNAP6R2, stranded pigtail = 1.82 (12AWG)
SNAP5262AL, almond, 5-15R, $6 for a spec grade 15A receptacle
SNAP8200AL, almond, 5-15R, $11.50 for a 15A hospital-grade receptacle

I'm sure contractor pricing would be less...

Thanks
Kent

[electricmanscott]

do you upsize your neutral? or are you just a more expensive hack?:D


Hopefully the most expensive hack. :D

[qcroanoke]

Technically, the size of the decive has no bearing on box fill, only the presence of it.

But of course, some devices take up more space than others. GFIs and dimmers top the list.
My code book says the device counts as two wires.314.16 B 4

[iwire]

I'd rather each room have 2 different 15a circuits serving receptacles. Smaller circuits but greater quantity make this easier.

4 15a circuits - 60 a

Ct 1 - 1/2 of livingroom, 1/2 of bedroom1
Ct 2 - 1/2 of bedroom 1 & 1/2 of bedroom 2
Ct 3 - 1/2 of bedroom 2 & 1/2 of bedroom 3
Ct 4 - 1/2 of bedroom 3 & 1/2 of livingroom

3 20a circuits - 60a

Ct 1 - Entire livingroom & 1/2 BR 1
Ct 2 - 1/2 BR 1 & Entire BR 2
Ct 3 - Entrie BR 3

Nice example, a much better design with the 4 15s.

[Chamuit]

iwire

Quote: Originally Posted by LawnGuyLandSparky
I'd rather each room have 2 different 15a circuits serving receptacles. Smaller circuits but greater quantity make this easier.

4 15a circuits - 60 a

Ct 1 - 1/2 of livingroom, 1/2 of bedroom1
Ct 2 - 1/2 of bedroom 1 & 1/2 of bedroom 2
Ct 3 - 1/2 of bedroom 2 & 1/2 of bedroom 3
Ct 4 - 1/2 of bedroom 3 & 1/2 of livingroom

3 20a circuits - 60a

Ct 1 - Entire livingroom & 1/2 BR 1
Ct 2 - 1/2 BR 1 & Entire BR 2
Ct 3 - Entrie BR 3

Nice example, a much better design with the 4 15s.

Amen to that! This is what I was trying to say. Thanks for saying it more eloquently!

[480sparky]

My code book says the device counts as two wires.314.16 B 4

True, but the size of the device isn't considered. A regular snap switch still counts as two, as well as the biggest, fattest and deepest dimmer.

I've seen dimmers that will not fit into some of the shallower switch boxes that have been installed, even without any wires in them.

[geezer]

Depends on if its a IBC (individual branch circuit) or a branch circuit suppling two or more outlets.

I sure missed a lot (this post) in a short amount of time. But to respond to your statement, Quite often it is not an individual branch circuit. Common practice in this area is to include a receptacle for a gas stove on the same circuit. And even without the stove, if a duplex receptacle is installed for the micro/ hood, it might depend on " what your definition of is, is". I know that there has been discussion about duplex receptacles on individual branch circuits.

[tryinghard]

"How many #12's": As many as I need? I've installed 6 and 8 gang switches with #12. If the box is the right size, I dont have any problem. I'm not following your train of thought here.

deco? How are the art deco switches a problem? If you talking about the old stacked despar switches-I never had a problem. If you are talking about decora switches-never had problems with them either.

While I have scuffed a wall every now and then, I try to be careful. I don't see what the wire size has to do with that.

I'm asking you specifically how many #12's can/will you install in your 3 gang switch box, counting the switches of course which happen to be deco style?

[480sparky]

I'm asking you specifically how many #12's can/will you install in your 3 gang switch box, counting the switches of course which happen to be deco style?


Depends on the in³ of your box.....

[roger]

I have added a poll to this thread, please vote.

Roger

[76nemo]

I've seen entire apartments supplied with one 15 amp circuit. Now that may not be desirable, but I have no problem running 15 amp circuits for living rooms and lighting.

Right now I have a computer, two sound mixers, DSL modem, printer, monitor, speakers, musical keyboard, bass amplifier, DVD player, VCR, cable box, stereo, television, XBox, lamp, and fan on a single 15 amp circuit. I've had them all on at the same time allowing for many people to entertain themselves in various ways and have never had a problem.

I agree with you peter d.

Like to see that level of harmonics. Ever checked that out? That was with 14awg?

[roger]

Like to see that level of harmonics. Ever checked that out? That was with 14awg?

Any harmonics would just cancel out in a 120/240 volt residential setting, so there would be no issue at all.

Roger

[electricmanscott]

I have added a poll to this thread, please vote.

Roger


The poll does not have an option that I can choose.

Such as... I wire to code and Laugh at those who waste their money on #12 when there is no good reason for it.

[76nemo]

Any harmonics would just cancel out in a 120/240 volt residential setting, so there would be no issue at all.

Roger

I meant just that particular circuit Rog..

[76nemo]

I see what you're saying.

[roger]

I meant just that particular circuit Rog..

It wouldn't matter, that circuit would not see any harmonic effects.

Roger

[roger]

I guess I was typing when you posted your last reply.

Roger

[George Stolz]

I have added a poll to this thread, please vote.

Roger
You need practice - you gave me a two-option poll that I can vote for both on. :D

[roger]

You need practice - you gave me a two-option poll that I can vote for both on. :D

I hope you fixed it.:D

Roger

[stickboy1375]

It's always the simplest questions that end up being the longest threads, god help us on this one... :grin: :grin: :grin:

[quogueelectric]

I'm asking you specifically how many #12's can/will you install in your 3 gang switch box, counting the switches of course which happen to be deco style?
You seem to be eluding to that it cant be done. How did all those commercial buildings go up with 12 wire all over the world without 14 wire?? You just wire them normally and lay your wires in so they wont short out to anything. Flip the switch and the lights come on.

[mivey]

I'm asking you specifically how many #12's can/will you install in your 3 gang switch box, counting the switches of course which happen to be deco style?Asking the same questions will get you the same answers unless you provide some additional info:
"How many #12's": As many as I need?

...deco? How are the art deco switches a problem? If you talking about the old stacked despar switches-I never had a problem. If you are talking about decora switches-never had problems with them either

[iwire]

Asking the same questions will get you the same answers unless you provide some additional info:

It appears from your posts that you are unaware of NEC box sizing requirements.

From an NEC perspective 12 AWG takes up more space then 14 AWG.

[iwire]

You seem to be eluding to that it cant be done.

No he seems to be asking how the box size was chosen. :)

How did all those commercial buildings go up with 12 wire all over the world without 14 wire??

They used the right size box for the job at hand. :)

[quogueelectric]

Poll says 83% to 25% so some people did vote both answers. There should be more options on the poll tho. I dont always use 14 and I dont always use 12 each job is different and 12 is an upgrade in price not too much tho.

[roger]

Poll says 83% to 25% so some people did vote both answers. There should be more options on the poll tho. I dont always use 14 and I dont always use 12 each job is different and 12 is an upgrade in price not too much tho.

Back peddling are we ? :grin: :grin: :grin:

Roger

[wireman71]

Only thing in my opinion that you have to plan for is plugging in that 9 amp vacuum. I'm not even sure they really pull that much. Never put a amp probe on one. I've never tripped a breaker with my vacuum either and I live in apartments wired to be the cheapest possible. I say wire how you want but at the end of the day if you are writing bids you will either lose money or be able to charge more because of your "quality" #12 wiring. EVERY expensive house I've showed up on is wired in #14 and stab backed receps. Course they are Leviton stab backs which in my opinion are better than the other brands.

[bikeindy]

I have added a poll to this thread, please vote.

Roger

Well that poll has nothing to do with my original post, Thanks.

[roger]

Well that poll has nothing to do with my original post, Thanks.

Well alot of the posts in this thread have nothing to do with your original post. :wink:

If you would like, I'll remove the poll just let me know.

Roger

[stickboy1375]

Well that poll has nothing to do with my original post, Thanks.

The thread really didn't stick to your original question as well...

[Minuteman]

You need practice - you gave me a two-option poll that I can vote for both on. :D
And I can't vote for either.

[bikeindy]

Well alot of the posts in this thread have nothing to do with your original post. :wink:

If you would like, I'll remove the poll just let me know.

Roger

I understand that but I don't thing the poll with its limited amount of choice helps the discussion. I can't vote.

[brantmacga]

Son, you gotta a lot a water to carry before you get even CLOSE to being as good as me.


:wink:


:grin: :grin: :grin: the only way to settle this i'm afraid is a wire-off! do we have any moderators that look like david bowie who can judge this thing?

[roger]

I understand that but I don't thing the poll with its limited amount of choice helps the discussion. I can't vote.

Well, I figured a "Do You" or "Don't You" poll would give pure answers.

I'll remove it at 6:30 EST in the morning and I apologize for attaching it to your thread

Now, I don't understand why some of you can't vote.

Roger

[mivey]

It appears from your posts that you are unaware of NEC box sizing requirements.'.Oooo sorry there iwire. Swing and a miss. Keep trying:)

[edit: clarity]

[bikeindy]

I don't understand why some of you can't vote.

Roger

I can vote for the top choice but it doesn't tell what I am trying to convey in this discussion.

Minuteman can't vote because while he does the second choice it is because the Big brothers in his area make him do it.

[jtandthefiddler]

I used to think 20amps all the way, but that was in commercial and I only used stranded. When I started doing houses, I found the #12solid romex was a bear to work with. I use #14 and a 15amp circuit whenever possible in residential.

[BryanMD]

Ford or Chevy?

[bikeindy]

Ford or Chevy?

Thats ridiculous, we are talking about more power here so it is CHEVY.

[roger]

Ok, the poll is closed.

My apologies to the OP.

Roger

[mivey]

It appears from your posts that you are unaware of NEC box sizing requirements.

From an NEC perspective 12 AWG takes up more space then 14 AWG.It would appear that you are not aware that how many wires I need in a box is based on what I'm trying to do inside that box, not the wire size. I use the box I need to fit the # conductors, devices, connectors, & fittings.

Changing the wires size doesn't change how the circuit works. I'm suprised you don't know this.

[celtic]

This oughta be good....

[mivey]

He started it:)

[roger]

This oughta be good....

But does any of this have anything to do with the OP? :D

Roger

[stickboy1375]

He started it:)

what you said is why Celtic said "this is going to be good"... and believe us, this IS going to be good... :)

[bikeindy]

It appears from your posts that you are unaware of NEC box sizing requirements.

From an NEC perspective 12 AWG takes up more space then 14 AWG.

I think that from an NEC perpective 12 AWG requires more space, and it is from a phyical perpective that 12 AWG takes up more space. But I get what you are trying to say.

[brantmacga]

Ford or Chevy?

GMC - because i am professional grade, unlike some of you hacks. 8-) :)

[bikeindy]

only 20,243 more posts to catch up with Bob.

type finger type

[mivey]

what you said is why Celtic said "this is going to be good"... and believe us, this IS going to be good... :)Clint's not that tender is he?

[Minuteman]

Well, I figured a "Do You" or "Don't You" poll would give pure answers.

I'll remove it at 6:30 EST in the morning and I apologize for attaching it to your thread

Now, I don't understand why some of you can't vote.

Roger
I couldn't vote because I most jurisdiction I work in banned 14, and the ones that allow it are to far out from the metro for me to mess with.

Therefore, for the most part, the only time I handle 14 is industrial controls.

Didn't see that choice in the poll.

[roger]

Didn't see that choice in the poll.

It wasn't in the poll and really wouldn't apply to those who do not have a choice but, if I were in that situation, I would have to cast my vote based on if I did have a choice.

Roger

[mivey]

But does any of this have anything to do with the OP? :D

RogerApparently, as long as you don't try to run a poll, anything goes:grin:

BTW I voted for "I use #14..." because I do sometimes. There was no option for having used both #12 and #14, depending on the situation.

[quogueelectric]

Back peddling are we ? :grin: :grin: :grin:

Roger
No backpedalling here but occasionally I like to hear about it from an expert:grin: :grin:
I am a 12 wire lover 14 is ok tho it has its place and I never said anything bad about it other than it is a minimal code instalation and that is about the best you can hope to get in this world.

[roger]

Apparently, as long as you don't try to run a poll, anything goes:grin:


Absolutely :wink:

Roger

[tryinghard]

I'm asking you specifically how many #12's can/will you install in your 3 gang switch box, counting the switches of course which happen to be deco style?

Asking the same questions will get you the same answers unless you provide some additional info:
"How many #12's": As many as I need?

deco?

mivey, I'm asking you specifically:
If you have a standard 3 gang switch box that is 44 CI how many #12's will you install in it, how do you calculate your wire fill that determines your box size?

"Deco" means decora wall switches; look in your Leviton catalog, there the ones with tiny finish screws and low tolerances for box problems.

[stickboy1375]

mivey, I'm asking you specifically:
If you have a standard 3 gang switch box that is 44 CI how many #12's will you install in it, how do you calculate your wire fill that determines your box size?

"Deco" means decora wall switches; look in your Leviton catalog, there the ones with tiny finish screws and low tolerances for box problems.
Why not start a new thread if you want to know how to do a box fill?

[tryinghard]

Why not start a new thread if you want to know how to do a box fill?

Oh I know how to calculate wirefill for boxes, I don't think mivey relizes how easy it is to overfill one; do you?

[mivey]

mivey, I'm asking you specifically:
If you have a standard 3 gang switch box that is 44 CI how many #12's will you install in it, how do you calculate your wire fill that determines your box size?

"Deco" means decora wall switches; look in your Leviton catalog, there the ones with tiny finish screws and low tolerances for box problems.I think we all know how to apply 314.16, so skip the cute stuff and get to the point. (I assume we all know, but if you really don't know, send me a PM and I'll walk you through it).

[edit: I see from a later post you do, you are just trying to be cute]

[mivey]

Oh I know how to calculate wirefill for boxes, I don't think mivey relizes how easy it is to overfill one; do you?If you will read some of my previous posts, you will see how silly that statement is.:roll:

[brantmacga]

No backpedalling here but occasionally I like to hear about it from an expert:grin: :grin:
I am a 12 wire lover 14 is ok tho it has its place and I never said anything bad about it other than it is a minimal code instalation and that is about the best you can hope to get in this world.


unless you run #10awg romex to the circuits that code requires to be 20a, you cannot use that argument; because unless you're using #10 for these circuits, you're just doing code minimum.

[tryinghard]

I think we all know how to apply 314.16, so skip the cute stuff and get to the point. (I assume we all know, but if you really don't know, send me a PM and I'll walk you through it).

[edit: I see from a later post you do, you are just trying to be cute]

No I am not trying to be cute! I am asking you a specific question that you are avoiding. This question IS related to the OP

[mivey]

"Deco" means decora wall switchesIt can also mean these:
http://www.iconhomeproducts.com/plugins/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PRODUCTS
or these:
http://www.palesinstyle.com.au/artdeco_index.htm
or these:
http://www.scolmore.com/electrical/deco.aspx

[mivey]

No I am not trying to be cute! I am asking you a specific question that you are avoiding. This question IS related to the OP

From post #1:
All you guys who just can't see your way to using 15 amp circuits.

How many of you own and operate a business?
Manage an EC business?
Do estimating and get the work for an EC?Please tell me which of those three questions you are working on?

[tryinghard]

From post #1:
Please tell me which of those three questions you are working on?
this one
All you guys who just can't see your way to using 15 amp circuits.

And I'm trying to point out how easy it is to over fill a box by those who won't use 14

[quogueelectric]

unless you run #10awg romex to the circuits that code requires to be 20a, you cannot use that argument; because unless you're using #10 for these circuits, you're just doing code minimum.
Who said I am putting it on a 20 a breaker??

[Minuteman]

And I'm trying to point out how easy it is to over fill a box by those who won't use 14
That's 'cause you can figure by two's using your fingers, and I have to think a little harder using 2.25 :rolleyes:

[quogueelectric]

Alright 2.0 cubic inches for 14 / 2.25 cubic inches for 12. Bring it on! I said it. Man this post got some legs!!

[mivey]

And I'm trying to point out how easy it is to over fill a box by those who won't use 14Well my friend, that's why they make more than one box size.:roll: If I'm doing re-work and need a bigger box, I put one in. If it is new work, I put whatever size box I need. What in the world is wrong with that?:-?

[tryinghard]

Well my friend, that's why they make more than one box size.:roll: If I'm doing re-work and need a bigger box, I put one in. If it is new work, I put whatever size box I need. What in the world is wrong with that?:-?

You still have not answered my question for a 3 gang box

[480sparky]

You still have not answered my question for a 3 gang box

And what is the in³ of your 3-gang box?

[mivey]

You still have not answered my question for a 3 gang boxsigh:roll: OK, I would calculate the minimum size using 314.16. Do you have a point yet or are you still prepping for the big reveal?

[mivey]

And what is the in³ of your 3-gang box?He finally threw out 44 cu in but he fails to recognize that doesn't tell the whole story. You would think an expert box fill calculator like him would know that is not all of the information needed for a definitive answer.

[brantmacga]

so instead of nailing up all the boxes first, you pull the wires first and then size the boxes according to how many conductors you have there? why not just use #14. add that to the list of reasons. -- or you could just use deep boxes everywhere and save the hassle of carrying different sizes and box fill calculations and other nonsense.

[mivey]

so instead of nailing up all the boxes first, you pull the wires first and then size the boxes according to how many conductors you have there? why not just use #14. add that to the list of reasons. -- or you could just use deep boxes everywhere and save the hassle of carrying different sizes and box fill calculations and other nonsense.No, I have a wiring plan before I nail the first box.

[mivey]

...you could just use deep boxes everywhere and save the hassle of carrying different sizes and box fill calculations and other nonsense.In case you don't realize it, a 1-gang deep box won't handle every situation. I have put in a 2-gang switch at a location to help with box fill and avoid having to have a j-box elsewhere.

[edit: just using deep boxes does not mean you can avoid the box fill calculations]

[tryinghard]

He finally threw out 44 cu in but he fails to recognize that doesn't tell the whole story. You would think an expert box fill calculator like him would know that is not all of the information needed for a definitive answer.

mivey,

Please do not take my press personal I am trying to convey a point to all the on-lookers who may be convinced 12 the only way to go.

[mivey]

mivey,

Please do not take my press personal I am trying to convey a point to all the on-lookers who may be convinced 12 the only way to go.Then make your point and quit insisting that someone else run calculations to support your position.

Don't worry, I'm not offended:) We are all friends here.

[edit: typo]

[brantmacga]

1) In case you don't realize it, a 1-gang deep box won't handle every situation.

2) I have put in a 2-gang switch at a location to help with box fill and avoid having to have a j-box elsewhere.

[edit: just using deep boxes does not mean you can avoid the box fill calculations]

1) - of course i realize that; i have a license as well, being in GA most likely the same one you do

2) - why would you put a 2-gang box and put one device in it? that looks like poo, and thus the reason for making overhead joints in the lighting box that said switch serves.

my wiring plan takes into account a situation that may have too many wires at one location (like that one more hot you need to feed that other switch box), and allows me to know which lighting box is going to get the extra conductors. :wink:

[mivey]

...who may be convinced 12 the only way to go.BTW, That is not my position.

[mivey]

...why would you put a 2-gang box and put one device in it? that looks like poo...That is not what I said. Read before you post!...I have put in a 2-gang switch...

...my wiring plan takes into account a situation that may have too many wires at one location (like that one more hot you need to feed that other switch box), and allows me to know which lighting box is going to get the extra conductors...Me too! Sounds like we are doing a great job. Let's keep it up!;)

[brantmacga]

so. . . out of curiosity, where does the other switch go? are we giving freebies now?? :D

[mivey]

so. . . out of curiosity, where does the other switch go? are we giving freebies now?? :DI incorporated it into the design. It was not the way I laid out in the 1st draft but so what? The best I recall I was able to switch some spotlights from that location. If that would not have worked out, I would have done something else with the circuit layout. It is all part of the process.:)

[tryinghard]

Then make your point and quit insisting that someone else run calculations to support your position.

Don't worry, I'm not offended:) We are all friends here.

[edit: typo]

This topic is most often residential related and if you use all 12-2 NM (the devices, switch leg cables and EGC are calculated at their respective required quantities multiplied by 2.25) leaving the remaining volume available as follows:
2G switch box @ 32 CI = 2 2W cables (1 hot in & 1 hot out), any more than this is an NEC violation.
3G switch box @ 42 CI = 2 2W cables (1 hot in & 1 hot out), any more than this is an NEC violation.
3G switch box @ 44 CI = 3 2W cables (1 hot in & 2 hot's out), any more than this is an NEC violation.

These applicatioins are often overfilled - violating NEC - which is hazardous for heat dissipation at a minimum and cumbersome to work with. The general lighting load can include the receptacles safely but either way it is a projected load, wire it either way as the application warrants but to draw a hard line for a projected load is wasteful and often code violating.

I suggest you work on softening your tones you are offensive.

[mivey]

I suggest you work on softening your tones you are offensive.No offense intended. Ride easy. Don't read too much into what is posted because text alone does not convey feeling. Website banter can be mis-judged way too fast. It's late, I was blunt. Sorry if I offended you.

[mivey]

OK based on "tryinghard" taking offense, I am going to conclude I was being moody tonight.

I thought iwire, in jest, was being sarcastic when he said this:It appears from your posts that you are unaware of NEC box sizing requirements.

From an NEC perspective 12 AWG takes up more space then 14 AWG.because I just see that as basic, common electrical knowledge.

Therefore, I thought I would jest with him by saying:It would appear that you are not aware that how many wires I need in a box is based on what I'm trying to do inside that box, not the wire size. I use the box I need to fit the # conductors, devices, connectors, & fittings.

Changing the wires size doesn't change how the circuit works. I'm suprised you don't know this.

Maybe I was completely out of line so, iwire, if you weren't joking:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/mivey_photo/Surrender.gif

[edit: on the other hand, if you were joking:
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii218/mivey_photo/Karatehamster.jpg

[bikeindy]

Apparently, as long as you don't try to run a poll, anything goes:grin:

BTW I voted for "I use #14..." because I do sometimes. There was no option for having used both #12 and #14, depending on the situation.

My OP had a poll built in I just didn't want to run a poll i think only 2 people ever answered any of the 3 questions. but the thread is about people who just won't use #14, most of whom I see are in one way or another comming around to see the light. and the light is wired with #14. so are the receptacles.

[mivey]

My OP had a poll built in I just didn't want to run a poll i think only 2 people ever answered any of the 3 questions. but the thread is about people who just won't use #14, most of whom I see are in one way or another comming around to see the light. and the light is wired with #14. so are the receptacles.#14 for the lights? I'm on board, for the most part. #14 for some dedicated circuits? I'm ok there as well. #14 for the general use receptacles? I'm just not there.

[bikeindy]

Who said I am putting it on a 20 a breaker??


AAHHHHH!!!

how many times did you say you were running #12 so the breaker wouldn't trip? Now you are going to tell us you put #12 on a 15 Amp breaker. or maybe you put it on a 30 so the breaker won't trip. I think you are playing with us.