Resturant NM Code

[bth0mas20]

I have a job today to work on for a resturant that has been closed down by the county deputy inspector for electrical code violations. The electrical inspector wants me to go thru this resturant with a fine tooth comb and find any problem that I can. He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it. This is his way of punishing them for not fixing these problem when they were told to.

My main question:
Thier is alot of romex running thru the ceilings of what used to be a drop ceiling and has since been removed and is now exposed. Is this legal....from reading the code for NM uses I am still second guessing it. I believe that it is ok becuase the building is older. What do you guys think?

[dSilanskas]

I think your right since the building is older I think it is grandfathered. But it sounds like the inspector wants you to bring the place up to code. So I'd ask him but I bet he will want you to change it

[dnem]

When it was above the drop ceiling, it was not permitted by 334.12(A)(2). . Now that it's exposed, it falls under 334.10(3).

I believe that it is ok becuase the building is older. What do you guys think?

You shouldn't be focusing on the age of the building. . You should be questioning when was the drop ceiling was removed. . At that point 334.10(3) comes into play.

Is there no limit on the scope of work ? . Is the county deputy inspector allowed by your state law to set a scope of work beyond any construction plan reviewed documents that are currently being followed ?

David

[bth0mas20]

The deputy inspector told me to find any problems and tell them about them. If they had a problem with it then to let him know and he would tell the owner that it will need to be fixed if he wants to open again.

Their is no limit to the scope. This is the resturant side that im working on. Thier is also a bar side that is a nightmare. Right now were focused on the resturant to get it open. I dont want to hurt them too bad becuase thier is 4 times as much money to be made on the bar side that is comming next. By the way this bar makes alot of money when their operating so they are looking to be back as quick as possible. That dosent mean were gonna take any shortcuts though.

[iwire]

He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it. This is his way of punishing them for not fixing these problem when they were told to.

That sounds like a job I would not want to be involved in.

No scope of work in writing, nobody really on the hook to pay for the work.

How well do you know this inspector?

[electricman2]

That sounds like a job I would not want to be involved in.


Me neither, sounds like this guy is using you to settle a score or has some agenda or axe to grind.

[growler]

The electrical inspector wants me to go thru this resturant with a fine tooth comb and find any problem that I can. He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it.


I had to read this a couple of times and then think on it a few minutes.

I have to agree with Bob, I'm not even sure the electrical inspector would have the authority to do this.

He could write them up for code volations. He could probably get the Fire Marshal to condemn the building so they would need a new CO just to reopen.

I don't think an electrical inspector would have the right to assign work to any EC. They are not really allowed to recommend anyone ( conflict of interest).

At the owners request I would be more than happy to write up a report on the condition of the wiring and any suggestions and a repair quote. At that time it should be up to the owner if he wisher for you are others to do the repairs ( under contract ).

[480sparky]

The inspector may 'back you up as punishment for not correcting the problems sooner,' but will he put his money where his mouth is? If the restaurant doesn't pay, is he willing to pony up?

[growler]

Thier is alot of romex running thru the ceilings of what used to be a drop ceiling and has since been removed and is now exposed. Is this legal....from reading the code for NM uses I am still second guessing it. I believe that it is ok becuase the building is older.


For that old romex in the ceiling that is exposed you may want to get an opinion from the health inspector. If there is a potential for it to flake off an drop into food or collect grease from cooking it may have to go for health concerns.

[cowboyjwc]

You don't say how big the resturant is, but it may be classified as an assembly occupancy and the NM cable would be a violation anyway (100 or more).

[Pierre C Belarge]

I have a job today to work on for a resturant that has been closed down by the county deputy inspector for electrical code violations. The electrical inspector wants me to go thru this resturant with a fine tooth comb and find any problem that I can. He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it. This is his way of punishing them for not fixing these problem when they were told to.

My main question:
Thier is alot of romex running thru the ceilings of what used to be a drop ceiling and has since been removed and is now exposed. Is this legal....from reading the code for NM uses I am still second guessing it. I believe that it is ok becuase the building is older. What do you guys think?




If these people get "smart" over the next couple of days, they will find out that the inspector most likely had no right to be in the restuarant to begin with.

Sure we all see pretty bad work in a lot of buildings, and inspectors have a the right to go back to the building department and get a letter written to the owner, if the EI thinks the existing work is hazardous to the publics health and well being. But most BOs know that is not always easy, and that the restaurant owner does not actually have to comply. The BO would then have to go to court to convince the judge that action would have to be taken...not always easy to do.

Inspectors are sort of like prison guards...they have less rights than the prisoners. :wink:

[wbalsam1]

The deputy inspector told me to find any problems and tell them about them. If they had a problem with it then to let him know and he would tell the owner that it will need to be fixed if he wants to open again.
This is done a lot by inspectors and EC's around here. It makes a great team effort to take care of serious fire hazards and allow the place to open as quickly as the place is brought back into a safer level. Everybody agrees to it going in. The owner, contractor and inspector.

Their is no limit to the scope. This is the resturant side that im working on. Thier is also a bar side that is a nightmare. Right now were focused on the resturant to get it open. I dont want to hurt them too bad becuase thier is 4 times as much money to be made on the bar side that is comming next. By the way this bar makes alot of money when their operating so they are looking to be back as quick as possible. That dosent mean were gonna take any shortcuts though.
Just as long as the owner realizes the game plan and agrees to it, I don't see a problem.

[iwire]

Just as long as the owner realizes the game plan and agrees to it, I don't see a problem.

Abuse of power?

I can't see how the owner is getting any choice, their business has been closed.

[wbalsam1]

Abuse of power?

I can't see how the owner is getting any choice, their business has been closed.

I don't see it as an "abuse of power" by the electrical official who is bound by law to enforce provisions of law that are set out in annual fire safety of public assembly type inspections. I see it as a willingness to work out a deal with the owner and whatever contractor the owner wants to hire.

Another way to look at it might be this way: "abuse of power" by the owner of the bar/restaurant who neglected to pull permits for electrical installations, and neglected to have inspections performed, but allowed his patrons to occupy the establishment to full capacity.

In NY State, we are required by law to conduct inspections annually in places of assembly. This has been a good thing for the safety of people using buildings, and even for the economy from work generated by the defects noted during the inspection process.

[mdshunk]

He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it.
Sounds like a verbal contract with the inspector? I don't know. This one is a little hairy in the contract department. Who's paying you to come up with this list? If someone way paying me to look this place over and develop a list of items for correction, I'd only actually do the work when an agreement between me and the person actually paying the bill has been completed.

[Pierre C Belarge]

Fred
It is hard to say from reading the OP's post what actually brought the inspector to the site in the first place. If it was an annual inspection that is one thing. Handling the issue for violations and having the contractor come up with the list of necessary corrections does not sound kosher to me.

Yes we do have both sides of the coin to deal with - shady inspectors and shady property owners. I really could not say which is worse. :D

[480sparky]

Plus, who's to say that it's stricly just electrical violations that are problems here. It also could include other issues, such as egress, fire supression, flammable materials, sanitation, health, noise, liquor licensing, etc. Playing the electrical card may just be one in the entire hand they are trying to play against the place.

[bth0mas20]

They are doing the paperwork to lessen the amount of people allowed to 97.

Also, The deputy inspector is not the electrical inspector. He is the lead inspector for all fields and he works close with the fire marshall. I just came from thier and worked for 4.5 hrs. I had a helper with me. I got a check today from them to cover my time, my helps time, and the materials I used today. I will work on this job for about 8 more hours to finish. He has paid me up so far. I will call for inspection on friday and If it passes I will be paid the rest of the money. Im not concerned about that. I require a certin amount up front before I touch a tool.

Every problem that I find I have reviewed it with the owner and he has agreed to let me fix it. Thier have been no issues with money so far.

[bth0mas20]

Plus, who's to say that it's stricly just electrical violations that are problems here. It also could include other issues, such as egress, fire supression, flammable materials, sanitation, health, noise, liquor licensing, etc. Playing the electrical card may just be one in the entire hand they are trying to play against the place.


Electrical is not the only problem.

Building, plumbing, and health all need sign offs before business can start again.

[480sparky]

Electrical is not the only problem.

Building, plumbing, and health all need sign offs before business can start again.

I got involved in one of those years ago. Liquor license was hanging by a thread. Fire Marshal allowed them to stay open as long as progress was being completed in a reasonable amount of time. He would be on the site about every other day checking on things, and asking all the subs what they were doing and how long it would take.

Then out of the blue, they closed up. :mad:

[iwire]

I don't see it as an "abuse of power" by the electrical official who is bound by law to enforce provisions of law that are set out in annual fire safety of public assembly type inspections.

Yes 'bound by law to enforce provisions of law' while not breaking the law while doing so.

Pierre put it well a few posts ago.


I see it as a willingness to work out a deal with the owner and whatever contractor the owner wants to hire.

It is not 'worked out' or a 'deal' when the owner of the business is being blackmailed into the decision.


Another way to look at it might be this way: "abuse of power" by the owner of the bar/restaurant who neglected to pull permits for electrical installations, and neglected to have inspections performed, but allowed his patrons to occupy the establishment to full capacity.

We have no idea if that happened at all.

In NY State, we are required by law to conduct inspections annually in places of assembly. This has been a good thing for the safety of people using buildings, and even for the economy from work generated by the defects noted during the inspection process.

It is a good thing, what does the law say about the proper procedure to have violations corrected?

Does it say the inspector shall close the business, tell an EC to go fix it all, and bill the owner?

To me the fact the inspector said 'to punish them' is a bad sign, I could be wrong.

[wbalsam1]

I have a job today to work on for a resturant that has been closed down by the county deputy inspector for electrical code violations. The electrical inspector wants me to go thru this resturant with a fine tooth comb and find any problem that I can. He said for me to fix it and make them pay for it and he would back me up on it. This is his way of punishing them for not fixing these problem when they were told to...........



I don't see a problem with this much of it, providing that the owner approves of this relationship.
This could get "questionable", here. The inspector should provide a list of violations and a reasonable time to fix them and leave the wheeling and dealing up to the building owner.
The look of impropriety must be addressed.

[wbalsam1]

......

Does it say the inspector shall close the business, tell an EC to go fix it all, and bill the owner?

To me the fact the inspector said 'to punish them' is a bad sign, I could be wrong.

This type of behavior would not be fitting or proper for an official.

[dnem]

This could get "questionable", here. The inspector should provide a list of violations and a reasonable time to fix them and leave the wheeling and dealing up to the building owner.

If the general inspector isn't qualified to understand the electrical requirements and provide a list of violations, then he should bring in an electrical inspector to perform an inspection, write a list of violations, and give the owner a copy.

The inspector dealing with the contractor directly and giving him a "blank check" is wrong.

David

[wbalsam1]

If the general inspector isn't qualified to understand the electrical requirements and provide a list of violations, then he should bring in an electrical inspector to perform an inspection, write a list of violations, and give the owner a copy.

The inspector dealing with the contractor directly and giving him a "blank check" is wrong.

David

I agree with all you've said.

[bradleyelectric]

I'm not sure that the inspector hired the OP. All I took it as they had a conversation. We can get a job from anywhere and call and talk to an inspector or call for an investigation inspection to have an inspector come out to a job and go over what it is they want done on a mess around here. The owner of the building may have received an order to close and called the OP and had him look at the job and the OP called the inspection department to see what they were looking for and the inspection department wanted to have the place brought up to current code as if they were going for a new CofO. This was triggered due to the fact they did not originally comply with order of violations. It is good for the building owner due to the fact they can correct the violations without making them go through the whole process so they could be open in a timely fashion if they complied this time. If they did not comply this time than it may have triggered a whole new building permit review proccess that would have been a lengthy ordeal and much more burdensome for the property owner. Instead of all that they let contractors in to fix the problems without the review proccess and saved the building owner the time involved. Than again I'm not involved in this project in anyway and it may be a scheme with inspectors and contractors to bleed wealthy business owners out of hard earned dollars.

[jshaw]

You don't say how big the resturant is, but it may be classified as an assembly occupancy and the NM cable would be a violation anyway (100 or more).


But, only if it's fire rated construction. 518.4 (B) says NM okay in nonrated construction, right?

[bth0mas20]

The last two days I have been correcting issues that Ive found. The owner has paid me to this point. They have asked me to have the inspector come and inspect it and get a list of the final "violations to fix". Then they will have me return to fix those problems. The inspection will be tomorrow and we will see what they say.

The county has warned the business owner numerous times to fix their problem and they didnt so they closed them down for more than just electrical reasons.

By the way what do you charge to replace a gfi when 30 cockroaches fall out of the box when the cover is removed? Im thinking at least $200 because I went to bed last night because I bought dinner from a different resturant and threw it away and went to bed on an empty stomach.

[cowboyjwc]

But, only if it's fire rated construction. 518.4 (B) says NM okay in nonrated construction, right?

You're correct, but at 50 people, the building code is going to require that it's a rated building (type V 1hr) anyways so....That and here we don't see a lot of NM in commercial anyways.

This is where the term "I'm only care about the NEC" can get you in trouble.

[Tiger Electrical]

Bump.

What happened?

Dave

[realolman]

The last two days I have been correcting issues that Ive found. The owner has paid me to this point. They have asked me to have the inspector come and inspect it and get a list of the final "violations to fix". Then they will have me return to fix those problems. The inspection will be tomorrow and we will see what they say.

The county has warned the business owner numerous times to fix their problem and they didnt so they closed them down for more than just electrical reasons.

By the way what do you charge to replace a gfi when 30 cockroaches fall out of the box when the cover is removed? Im thinking at least $200 because I went to bed last night because I bought dinner from a different resturant and threw it away and went to bed on an empty stomach.

I think this whole deal is crazy. What inspector has the right to close a business down when he doesn't even know what is wrong with it?? If the owner doesn't kiss his butt when you're done, are there going to be more violations? As part of 2 days work that shuts down a business, you're replacing a GFI?! If I was the owner, he'd be talking to my attorney.

Sounds more like organized crime to me.

[dnem]

I think this whole deal is crazy. What inspector has the right to close a business down when he doesn't even know what is wrong with it?? If the owner doesn't kiss his butt when you're done, are there going to be more violations?

Conflict of interest

If the inspector is closing down the business and then relying a contractor to tell him what needs corrected, should that same contractor be making the money to fix the issues.

Isn't that a conflict of interest ?

David