photos from my first plastic & wirenut job!

[brantmacga]

i just started a new resi job and it is my first using plastic boxes and wirenuts. i've been happy with them so far. they really go up fast. another advantage i found is that i was able to shed about 300lbs off my cargo weight by getting most of the steel boxes out of the truck.

anyhow, here's a few pics. sorry they're so huge. they go directly from my phone to a webserver and i haven't figured out how to edit them other than downloading, editing, and uploading which takes more time than i have at the moment.


1) plastic fan box. its nice!
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/5c/9e/d1fa9beaef41.jpg



2) a couple of switches for pendants, under-cabinet lights, and a 20a sabc/telephone combo.
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/14/05/6fb21faa7116.jpg


3) my first use of the arlington in-box. this one will be surrounded by stone. it is an adjustable version. i like it.
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/71/f9/4d50e703080d.jpg

4) this is the siding overlap inbox. the siding was in place when i started so i had to use the retro-fit in-box. it even came w/ the caulk!
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/72/5f/9d2008fc381c.jpg

5) just a 3 gang switch.
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/e4/32/2b758a7d897d.jpg

6) this was worth its weight in gold for installing the wirenuts.
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/4a/2f/de3f7cfdd3ad.jpg

7) got the stackers too.
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/fd/35/70ce5a3f5c7c.jpg

8) used the greenies!
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/92/f1/cc36116e2511.jpg

i am satisfied thus far.

[Minuteman]

Nice pics, good looking work, wire too small. :grin:

[BryanMD]

i just started a new resi job and it is my first using plastic boxes and wirenuts. i've been happy with them so far. they really go up fast. another advantage i found is that i was able to shed about 300lbs off my cargo weight by getting most of the steel boxes out of the truck.


Welcome to the 1970's ;)

[brantmacga]

Nice pics, good looking work, wire too small. :grin:

ever think maybe your eyes are too big? :D


Welcome to the 1970's :wink:

its good to be here sir. now where do i get my extremely huge collared shirt at?

[220/221]

Welcome to the 1970's


Damn, you beat me to it ;)

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Nice pics, good looking work, wire too small. :grin:

I just knew someone would point that out... :grin:

[Minuteman]

i just started a new resi job and it is my first using.. wirenuts.
Was you using solder before this job?

[brantmacga]

Was you using solder before this job.

yes i've always used steel boxes and solder.

http://www.mcdonaldelectric.com/images/3gang.jpg

[ItsHot]

yes i've always used steel boxes and solder.

http://www.mcdonaldelectric.com/images/3gang.jpg
Solder??? That is for plumbers!

[electricmanscott]

yes i've always used steel boxes and solder.

Can't...type....laughing...too....hard.....:D

Dude, I got this wacky new electronic device....you hook it up to your tv, and I'll be aturkey neck in a deep fryer....it plays movieess!!!!!!RIGHT ON THE TEEEVEEE!! It's a beta carotene or beta someting or other...:grin:

[electricman2]

Solder??? That is for plumbers!
I have never had a lot of luck with solder. My splices always leak.:rolleyes:

[cowboyjwc]

I hear in Kansas City they got them a buildin' 4 stories tall!

[satcom]

I think it's safe to use plastic boxes and wire nuts.

They have this new thing a computer, that will replace your slide rule, and it's ok to trade in the old black and white TV, the color sets work pretty well, just load that old TV in your 57 Chevy, and take it to the junk yard, with the old lead solder, and pot.

[brantmacga]

yeh yeh :roll:

at least i was willing to try something else. (unlike #12 vs. #14 :D )

i know you guys think its funny, but its the norm here. i was trained steel and solder; and i'm told by friends who trained at the local tech school that they teach soldering there too. i'd never really seen a plastic job until seeing some of you guys pics on here. i never knocked anyone for using it, just never took the time to look into it. i'm pricing both ways now (steel & plastic) because some builders and homeowners won't have plastic in their houses.

[BryanMD]

yeh yeh :roll:

at least i was willing to try something else. (unlike #12 vs. #14 :D )

i know you guys think its funny, but its the norm here. i was trained steel and solder; and i'm told by friends who trained at the local tech school that they teach soldering there too. i'd never really seen a plastic job until seeing some of you guys pics on here. i never knocked anyone for using it, just never took the time to look into it. i'm pricing both ways now (steel & plastic) because some builders and homeowners won't have plastic in their houses.

If your builders and homeowners are willing to pay for the steel then do it!
(1900's & mud rings & H4's too?)

The soldering however... ;)

[iwire]

Do you have pictures of solderd conducors? The only time I have seen soldered splices in this area was with cloth covered condutors.


at least i was willing to try something else. (unlike #12 vs. #14 )



LOL :grin:


Darn good point. :)

[brantmacga]

If your builders and homeowners are willing to pay for the steel then do it!
(1900's & mud rings & H4's too?)

The soldering however... ;)


yes that is the point in pricing it both ways; the steel and solder is certainly going to cost more. we don't use 4" squares and mud rings though. there are steel device boxes that look pretty much the same as the plastic ones. instead of those small ko's in the back for romex like the plastic have, they have twist-outs w/ wire-clamps. that picture i posted in here w/ the steel box is what we use for multi-gang boxes. the sides can screw out and be attached to more boxes, hence "gang box".



Do you have pictures of solderd conducors? The only time I have seen soldered splices in this area was with cloth covered condutors.

no but if you give me a few minutes i will go take one and put it up.

[Rewire]

solder pot makes a good ash tray

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

no but if you give me a few minutes i will go take one and put it up.

Just as I suspected - you can't heat the solder pot AND run the computer at the same time... :grin:

[BryanMD]

there are steel device boxes that look pretty much the same as the plastic ones. instead of those small ko's in the back for romex like the plastic have, they have twist-outs w/ wire-clamps. that picture i posted in here w/ the steel box is what we use for multi-gang boxes. the sides can screw out and be attached to more boxes, hence "gang box".

LOL. Thanks for the tutorial in steel box types. ;)
(I'll tuck it away somewhere secure)

[satcom]

Just as I suspected - you can't heat the solder pot AND run the computer at the same time... :grin:

Yup one of those guys that used 14GA!

[brantmacga]

Just as I suspected - you can't heat the solder pot AND run the computer at the same time... :grin:

lol that is pretty funny. it was actually a little tough to make it up w/o the box secured to something. anyway, here's a pic. one is taped to show what that looks like when done.

http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/22/52/4794a07fdb52.jpg

[SiddMartin]

sad part is that solder is a better connection, it's the crappy tape that went to sh*t.

[76nemo]

lol that is pretty funny. it was actually a little tough to make it up w/o the box secured to something. anyway, here's a pic. one is taped to show what that looks like when done.

http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/22/52/4794a07fdb52.jpg


Never before have I seen that done, not in that manner. Won't get any slack here. I see it as old school like many others, but NOT less safe. I have to say, it seems it would be alot more time consuming whether it's installation or service, especially service.

Good for you to posts your pics, not what I am used to seeing, but neat work though Brant. Like to see some more pics.

Give 'em hell:wink:

[76nemo]

sad part is that solder is a better connection, it's the crappy tape that went to sh*t.


Not any less appealing than an old raggedy wire bug. Safe is safe, doesn't have to be appealing to the cover of the swimsuit issue:wink:

[brantmacga]

Never before have I seen that done, not in that manner. Won't get any slack here. I see it as old school like many others, but NOT less safe. I have to say, it seems it would be alot more time consuming whether it's installation or service, especially service.

Good for you to posts your pics, not what I am used to seeing, but neat work though Brant. Like to see some more pics.

Give 'em hell:wink:

to be honest, i didn't realize just how time consuming it was until i did this recent job w/ the plastic boxes and wirenuts. i thought i could solder and tape just as fast as i could wirenut; i was wrong.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

lol that is pretty funny. it was actually a little tough to make it up w/o the box secured to something. anyway, here's a pic. one is taped to show what that looks like when done.

http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/22/52/4794a07fdb52.jpg

Very nice. Nothing wrong with it, just a bit labor intensive. So on request you just went out and made up a solder joint for all of us to see? I wonder how you handle a 200a service? The address is... :grin:

[aline]

to be honest, i didn't realize just how time consuming it was until i did this recent job w/ the plastic boxes and wirenuts. i thought i could solder and tape just as fast as i could wirenut; i was wrong.
Just think how much more money you'll make if you keep bidding them as if you were going to use the solder method but used wirenuts instead.

Or does this mean you're going to bid them cheaper now?

[480sparky]

Nothing wrong with S&T, but by the time you get it made up, I'm done with the box. I mean done.... made up, nutted & stuffed.

I don't need to walk the job again with a torch & spool (or a solder pot, if that's your preference), then walk it again with a couple rolls of tape.

Plus, I won't mention the time it takes to take one of those apart to correct a make-up error. S&T is not guaranteed error-free. Let alone adding something in the future.

[brantmacga]

Very nice. Nothing wrong with it, just a bit labor intensive. So on request you just went out and made up a solder joint for all of us to see? I wonder how you handle a 200a service? The address is... :grin:


:D :D yeh. my wife was pulling up the drive when i was taking the pictures.

her - "what are you doing?"

me - "nothing."

her - "doesn't look like nothing. is this for that stupid website?"

[brantmacga]

Just think how much more money you'll make if you keep bidding them as if you were going to use the solder method but used wirenuts instead.

Or does this mean you're going to bid them cheaper now?


I was going up on everything and tried the plastic to see if it would help get the cost down. At my new rates, the plastic job is higher than what i was charging for steel & solder before.

[ItsHot]

I pointed out to a guy the other day in the "blue box" that a 4" carlon box cover (plastic) cost more than a 4" metal cover!

[brantmacga]

I pointed out to a guy the other day in the "blue box" that a 4" carlon box cover (plastic) cost more than a 4" metal cover!

well i certainly did not know that. i don't know where i'd have a use for a plastic 4" cover though.

[480sparky]

well i certainly did not know that. i don't know where i'd have a use for a plastic 4" cover though.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/4x4plastic.jpg

[electricalperson]

I was going up on everything and tried the plastic to see if it would help get the cost down. At my new rates, the plastic job is higher than what i was charging for steel & solder before.
i didnt know it was legal to solder conductors together. could you post a picture of your work? i do appreciate the splices im cutting out of boxes that are soldered. it shown the quality and craftsmanship of electricians back then. just my opnion

[electricalperson]

oops didnt read page 3

[brantmacga]

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc172/480sparky/4x4plastic.jpg

how much is that box? i give right at a dollar for a 1900 box & the cover together.

[76nemo]

:D :D yeh. my wife was pulling up the drive when i was taking the pictures.

her - "what are you doing?"

me - "nothing."

her - "doesn't look like nothing. is this for that stupid website?"


Oh my, people ask me why I am a permanent bachelor, no wonder. Don't delete guys, it's SOMEWHAT legit:smile:

Brant, I have never soldered outside of electronics/instrumentation/control, but your work is fine. The bottom line is if the work is done in a safe matter. Your work is good. Stick by your guns. Nothing wrong with plastic and nuts, you see. It's all a matter of what we have come accustomed to.

[satcom]

how much is that box? i give right at a dollar for a 1900 box & the cover together.

You may be taking some heat, but I am cert for solder splices, and other solder connections.

We use a lot of steel boxes even today.

[480sparky]

lol that is pretty funny. it was actually a little tough to make it up w/o the box secured to something. anyway, here's a pic. one is taped to show what that looks like when done.

http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo05/22/52/4794a07fdb52.jpg


I hope you have the box properly grounded......

[Karl H]

WOW all I can say is ; I've always wanted to see the legends do their soldering magic.If anyone has the balls to call me a Young Gun at 40 and 22 years in the trade. I will respectfully sit Indian Style with open ears and with an open mind for hours.Teach on SIR!!!!!!!

[brantmacga]

I hope you have the box properly grounded......

The ground wire gets clipped to the box. I just didn't show it in my picture.

WOW all I can say is ; I've always wanted to see the legends do their soldering magic.If anyone has the balls to call me a Young Gun at 40 and 22 years in the trade. I will respectfully sit Indian Style with open ears and with an open mind for hours.Teach on SIR!!!!!!!

I guess that was a compliment to me? I appreciate it. I haven't been doing this work nearly as long as you, being I'm 25, but the man I apprenticed under has been in the trade 49 years now so I was taught "old school." But you guys are bringing me up to speed on how things are being done in the modern age. D:

[iaov]

I hate to rain on the party here but I have seen better soldering. One of the best reasons not to do it is it is difficult, time consuming, and often not done properly. Cleanlyness is next to Godlyness when it comes to soldering.It does not appear that the wires in these connections were cleaned ahead of time. Probably the solder and iron were not cleaned either resulting in the uneven flow in the joints pictured. It is hard to clean wires in J-boxes and for solder to flow properly you have to heat the conductors and the solder hot enough. The line between having enough heat for good flow and too much where you melt the insulation and contaminate the connection is fine indeed. Anyways welcome to the 21st century and the magic of plastic. Nice work!!:)

[brantmacga]

I hate to rain on the party here but I have seen better soldering.

never said i was the best at it. i just do it the way i was taught by someone who's done it for almost 50 years. my feelings aren't hurt. i did like the plastic though.

[glene77is]

brantmacga,

Tell'em how it was! And it worked good!

I've used steel boxes and dipped solder and burned my fingers taping them.

But that was back in 1969.

[brantmacga]

brantmacga,

Tell'em how it was! And it worked good!

I've used steel boxes and dipped solder and burned my fingers taping them.

But that was back in 1969.

i'm a believer! honestly if it weren't for some of criticism and sarcastic humor i got on here before about using steel & solder, i probably wouldn't have tried them. but, i believe this to be a group of people who know what they are doing, and decided to listen to people who've been doing this a lot longer than i have. the result paid off. so, thanks to you that made fun of me for helping me. :) i appreciate it.

[quogueelectric]

:D :D yeh. my wife was pulling up the drive when i was taking the pictures.

her - "what are you doing?"

me - "nothing."

her - "doesn't look like nothing. is this for that stupid website?"
I get the same crap every day. I think they have Mike Holt Envy. :wink: :smile:

[iaov]

I get the same crap every day. I think they have Mike Holt Envy. :wink: :smile:That is funny!!:grin:

[HaskinsElectric]

Now that you've successfully experimented with plastic boxes and wirenuts, you should experiment with telephone wiring. In all modern houses, the phones are now inside! This could be a source of extra income!
http://www.haskinselectric.com/mikeholtforum/green_acres.jpg

[peter d]

Now that you've successfully experimented with plastic boxes and wirenuts, you should experiment with telephone wiring. In all modern houses, the phones are now inside! This could be a source of extra income!

Let's not forget about indoor bathrooms as well! There is money to be made on the wiring in them!

[Dennis Alwon]

yeh yeh :roll:

i'm pricing both ways now (steel & plastic) because some builders and homeowners won't have plastic in their houses.

What do they think NM cable is made of -- steel????? It's plastic

[brantmacga]

i'll play along


In all modern houses, the phones are now inside!
http://www.haskinselectric.com/mikeholtforum/green_acres.jpg

The heck you say!!



Let's not forget about indoor bathrooms as well! There is money to be made on the wiring in them!

yes i've seen them inside, but just what kind of wiring does a hole in the floor need?

What do they think NM cable is made of -- steel????? It's plastic

I can't explain that one. Maybe they get lost in that fact looking at the shiny white, yellow, and orange colored cables.

[mivey]

yes i've seen them inside, but just what kind of wiring does a hole in the floor need?For the telephone you put next to the hole :D

[HighWirey]

I hate to rain on the party here but I have seen better soldering. One of the best reasons not to do it is it is difficult, time consuming, and often not done properly. Cleanlyness is next to Godlyness when it comes to soldering.It does not appear that the wires in these connections were cleaned ahead of time. Probably the solder and iron were not cleaned either resulting in the uneven flow in the joints pictured. It is hard to clean wires in J-boxes and for solder to flow properly you have to heat the conductors and the solder hot enough. The line between having enough heat for good flow and too much where you melt the insulation and contaminate the connection is fine indeed. Anyways welcome to the 21st century and the magic of plastic. Nice work!!:)

Anyone who critizes the quality of those pictured solder connections does not his xxx from apple butter.

No contest here that a solder connection is a better, but a more time consuming connection than a wirenut.

I too, did not know that a soldered connection was legal for residential wiring.

And I have heard the term 'solder pot' used. How in the world would a person use a solder pot to complete any joints in residential?

Best Wishes Everyone

[iwire]

Soldered connections can show a higher resistance then wire nut connections.

Don posted some info about this before, that said I am sure the connections in the picture will work fine for as long as they need to.

[480sparky]

And I have heard the term 'solder pot' used. How in the world would a person use a solder pot to complete any joints in residential?

My term of 'solder pot' may be inaccurate, but is meant to describe a metal 'spoon' in which a large amount of solder is melted.

In the method I have seen used, the electrician starts to heat up the solder before making up the boxes. While the solder is melting, he goes around and makes up the boxes, and turns all the connections downward. Imagine making a box up, as if intending to use wire nuts, but solder & tape instead.

Then, when all the make-up is done, the solder is melted. The electrician walks around the house and dips each set of twisted wires into the molten solder. Several connections can be done simultaniously if the 'pot' is large enough and prudent planning is done during make-up.

I would suspect this method is faster than using a coil of solder and a torch, buy you would still need to return (again) to each box to tape the joints and finish stuffing the boxes.

[HighWirey]

Soldered connections can show a higher resistance then wire nut connections.
Don posted some info about this before, that said I am sure the connections in the picture will work fine for as long as they need to.

iwire,

Thanx for the reply. I missed Don's earlier reply. I am a newby.
How can a twisted and soldered connection have a lower resistance than a twisted only scotchlok connection? Rhetorical question here.

Thanks for your work as a moderator. How do you moderators find the time?

480,

I now remember hearing of the 'spoon' method of soldering.

Most of my exposure to splicing was with the old time 'paper insulated and lead' communication cable splicers. Twist and solder (with sterine flux and an electric iron) and a waxed cotton sleeve as the insulator. Yes, they were still using that old technology at the Kennedy Space Center 8 years ago.

Thank you for your response.

Best Wishes Everyone

[don_resqcapt19]

I don't have the original source, but the premise was that the solder itself has a higher resistance than the copper to copper connection. In a correctly done solder joint the copper will be completely coated by the solder. The difference would be very small and would never make any difference in a real world connection.

A side note on dipped solder joints. My dad did all of the electrical in the house I grew up in. Everything was in rigid conduit and all of the joints were soldered using a dip pot. I was making a change for my mom a few years ago and found a box in the basement where the joints had been dipped, but never taped or tucked back into the box. Been that way for over 40 years.

[e57]

I don't have the original source, but the premise was that the solder itself has a higher resistance than the copper to copper connection. In a correctly done solder joint the copper will be completely coated by the solder. The difference would be very small and would never make any difference in a real world connection.


The solder itself is not the "joint" IMO - it is the splicing technique, the solder is just used to seal and hold it together....

110.14(B) Splices.
Conductors shall be spliced or joined with splicing devices identified for the use or by brazing, welding, or soldering with a fusible metal or alloy. Soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secure without solder and then be soldered. All splices and joints and the free ends of conductors shall be covered with an insulation equivalent to that of the conductors or with an insulating device identified for the purpose.

[don_resqcapt19]

e57,
The solder itself is not the "joint" IMO - it is the splicing technique, the solder is just used to seal and hold it together....
Yes, but there will be no exposed copper. The solder will coat the copper completely even when it has been tightly twisted.

[480sparky]

e57,

Yes, but there will be no exposed copper. The solder will coat the copper completely even when it has been tightly twisted.

And what is the danger of 'exposed' copper, especially if it's covered properly with tape?

[lbwireman]

We do primarily service, retrofit and upgrade work in an area where most occupancies are 50 to 100 years old. we have found every method of connection from S&T (usually w/K&T), 3 piece crimp sleeve (lead/zinc alloy?)/rubber insulator/retainer ring, "Buchanans" (Cu crimp sleeve) w/ tape, Wagos, wirenuts. As this thread was being discussed in our shop, one of the guys asked why (or if) a S&T joint would be preferable to a twisted, crimped (Cu sleeve) and taped one. Any thoughts?

[mivey]

...why (or if) a S&T joint would be preferable to a twisted, crimped (Cu sleeve) and taped one...For an in-line splice, maybe less noise from an "antenna" perspective, or that it is less bulky? Can't see a good reason for a normal joint.

[e57]

e57,

Yes, but there will be no exposed copper. The solder will coat the copper completely even when it has been tightly twisted.But if the joint had an undesirable level of resistance prior to solder - I doubt the solder will improve it by much.... But if it had zero resistance prior to solder the solder will not effect it detrimentally IMO. Meaning... If you have a good mechanical copper to copper connection before the solder - you'll still have the same after the solder.

[don_resqcapt19]

480sparky,

And what is the danger of 'exposed' copper, especially if it's covered properly with tape?
I wasn't really clear. What I am trying to say that with a soldered joint there is no copper to copper connection. There is when you twist the wired together before you solder them, but there isn't after. With a wirenut there is copper to copper after the joint is complete. The small amount of tin and lead between the copper wires is what makes the resistance a very small amount higher for the soldered connection.

[don_resqcapt19]

.... But if it had zero resistance prior to solder the solder will not effect it detrimentally IMO
I didn't say it was a problem...just that it had a slightly higher resistance. Much too little of a change to be measured with any field instrument.

[brantmacga]

don, it seems like it would be hard for the solder to encapsulate the copper and prevent direct contact between the two conductors. in a tightly twisted joint, it would basically have to squeeze itself between the conductors. is this possible? when taking voltage measurements, i rarely see the slightest drop from the service to the last device on any particular branch (measuring up to tenths of a volt). there is a high amount of surface contact area in a joint, whether it be soldered or crimped. i'm not at all saying you're wrong, i'm just curious as to whether one could get a measurable difference that has any effect on the circuit; and keep in mind we're only talking about small conductors here: #14 & #12.


edit ---> sorry i didn't read your last post
Much too little of a change to be measured with any field instrument.

[don_resqcapt19]

My understanding is that the flux used on the wire before twisting is displaced by the solder and the wire is completely coated with solder in a correctly made joint.

[iaov]

Anyone who critizes the quality of those pictured solder connections does not his xxx from apple butter.

No contest here that a solder connection is a better, but a more time consuming connection than a wirenut.

I too, did not know that a soldered connection was legal for residential wiring.

And I have heard the term 'solder pot' used. How in the world would a person use a solder pot to complete any joints in residential?

Best Wishes EveryoneI've had my xxx confused with a myriad of different things during my life, but never with apple butter. I don't know what the heck that is. But I do know how to solder.And I do know what a good solder joint looks like. The Navy sent me to NASA for a week to learn the science and the art of soldering. They were Very particular there.Back to the apple butter, is that any thing like a hole in the ground?:D

[wirebender]

I don't know what the heck that is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_butter

Good stuff, my granny made the best.:grin:

[e57]

My understanding is that the flux used on the wire before twisting is displaced by the solder and the wire is completely coated with solder in a correctly made joint.

With the K&T splices I find myself doing all too often - I usually scrape the conductor bare - then splice - then flux - then solder. Just copper to copper as the joint - the flux will flush out anything laying around the splice and allow the solder to flow, but not get between the two (or more) pieces of copper IMO. The copper is usually wrenched tight against each other. I think if you got a cross-section it wouldn't have any solder in between - might need a microscope to check though....

[iaov]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_butter

Good stuff, my granny made the best.:grin:Thanx wirebender. My wife says she ate it as a kid and it was delicious. I'll have to give it a try sometime if for no other reason than to save future confussion on my part.:D

[growler]

I don't know what the heck that is. But I do know how to solder.And I do know what a good solder joint looks like. The Navy sent me to NASA for a week to learn the science and the art of soldering. They were Very particular there.


You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.

Most of the equipment that we use in civilian life ( commercial & industrial ) will not meet military specs. Military equipment must be designed for use in time of war where any sort of break down would be dangerous.

Example" Good resistor for commercial use has a tolerance of plus or minus 5% and a military grade resistor had a tolerance of plus or minus 1%.
People question why military equipment is so expensive but close tolerance work cost. :)

[e57]

You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.


Or electronics soldering to soldering of distribution conductors - two different animals IMO.

[iaov]

You really can't compare military spec. work ( soldering ) and their strict tolerances to what would be required for residential work.

Most of the equipment that we use in civilian life ( commercial & industrial ) will not meet military specs. Military equipment must be designed for use in time of war where any sort of break down would be dangerous.

Example" Good resistor for commercial use has a tolerance of plus or minus 5% and a military grade resistor had a tolerance of plus or minus 1%.
People question why military equipment is so expensive but close tolerance work cost. :)You are absolutly right growler. And the solder joint that was pictured was fine. I'm sure it would last forever. But IMHO a thing of beauty it was not.There are no "good old days". Just old days and everything we have available to us, wether cars, motor cycles, or plastic gang boxes are better today. I'm damn glad I can wire nut my connections rather than having to solder them!:D

[satcom]

Or electronics soldering to soldering of distribution conductors - two different animals IMO.

Exactly, different flux material, different solder, and the joints are not inspected with a microscope, or put in a test chamber, then run thru a series of quality tests.

[76nemo]

I WILL NOT say you are wrong on soldered connections, I will say I think you are wrong on SOME angles. You are going to have to get alot deeper than this discussion such as alloys and different fluxes. I think Brants work is fine. Some are bashing it because they are not used to it like myself.
If I take a loop impedance tester or earth bond tester to his work, I can't see ANY problem what so ever.
And as far as the flux discussion, there is No-Clean flux that was introduced just for these applications. It will protect the joint connections itself.

Call me stupid, I agree, but show me solid facts that back this discussion. I don't solder anything unless it's in a cabinet or on a PCA. Just because I don't, doesn't make Brant's work bad. I think he is wasting time, I DO NOT question his bonds.

Let's come up with something more solid before we exchange anymore jabs:rolleyes:

[growler]

I'm damn glad I can wire nut my connections rather than having to solder them!:D


So am I but you do run into some strange things in this business. When I first started to work on older homes in the down town area I found something that at first perplexed me. There were conductors run in this small, stange looking, black conduit with odd looking fittings. These were old gas pipes converted for use as electrical conduit. Live and learn.

I must say that I have run into many more unusual things doing residential remodeling than I ever saw doing new commercial or industrial work. I have found live, old, open, ceramic knife switches. They hadn't been used in years but were still live.

In many ways I get a kick out of seeing the evolution of electrical products. Many times you will find work that is 80 years old in a house that's been remodeled a half dozen times and there were some improvements made each time. In one house I think I have found devices from each decade of the last 80 or so years. You can find an old push button switch from the knob & tube days in the basement and a modern low voltage lighting system in the kitchen.

[jaylectricity]

:D :D yeh. my wife was pulling up the drive when i was taking the pictures.

her - "what are you doing?"

me - "nothing."

her - "doesn't look like nothing. is this for that stupid website?"

Thank you for the mental image hahahaha!!!!

Anyway pretty cool stuff, I've only read up til this post in the thread. I expect to see some defense of this "stupid website" in the next few pages, which if you are reading this means the last few pages.

Working in MA I come across many solder and tape jobs. Most of them are small 3 inch round boxes with 4 BX's coming into from each direction and all the wires crammed into the space with little or no indication as to the integrity of the insulation.

So in general my opinion is: Ick, this sucks! (And that wording is cleaned up quite a bit.)

[nakulak]

Thanx wirebender. My wife says she ate it as a kid and it was delicious. I'll have to give it a try sometime if for no other reason than to save future confussion on my part.:D

your wife ate solder ?

[iaov]

your wife ate solder ?Apparently I'm not the only one confused about Applebutter.:D

[e57]

Flux..... The rosin type - a damp rag while still warm (NOT HOT!) will take it right off, and if you leave a little so what.... (better not to)

Acid - you had better get it off and good - same way - maybe do that while still hot with a glove (due to steam burns).... But don't recommend acid flux.

[don_resqcapt19]

With the K&T splices I find myself doing all too often - I usually scrape the conductor bare - then splice - then flux - then solder. Just copper to copper as the joint - the flux will flush out anything laying around the splice and allow the solder to flow, but not get between the two (or more) pieces of copper IMO. The copper is usually wrenched tight against each other. I think if you got a cross-section it wouldn't have any solder in between - might need a microscope to check though....
Any that I have untwisted have been completely coated with solder, but I have not looked at it with a microscope.

[e57]

Any that I have untwisted have been completely coated with solder, but I have not looked at it with a microscope.

The point of contact will be one line for two conductors, at least two with more than two conductors. The idea is to have the length of that point of contact be equal to or greater than the circumference of the conductor. Ideal - would be to equal the area of the conductor. Twist enough to deform the conductor to widen that line all the better. Solder at that point is only sealing that point of contact.

See attachment:

[480sparky]

The point of contact will be one line for two conductors, at least two with more than two conductors. The idea is to have the length of that point of contact be equal to or greater than the circumference of the conductor. Ideal - would be to equal the area of the conductor. Twist enough to deform the conductor to widen that line all the better.

See attachment:


Not circumference....cross-sectional area.

[e57]

One more pic'

http://forums.mikeholt.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1393&d=1205716181

[e57]

Not circumference....cross-sectional area.

Circumference!!! It's good enough IMO for a min. I did mention "area" being ideal but not necessary IMO - and easy moderate length. For instance if you put a conductor on a terminal screw 2/3's around - tightened on both sides - odds are that it will be more than circumference, but less than area - and acceptable.... (Whats that number 3.14????*R*2) A splice that long for #12 would be about an inch long and > than the area.

[RHJohnson]

I'm not old enough to have done that old time work. Methods changed by the time I got my start 50 years ago... But I did work around some of those old timers, and saw work they had done years before - they would point out how things used to be. WOW !! They had a completely different outlook in those days. Pride in their craft really showed.... don't get me wrong, there were some dregs of humanity, but if you worked hard, wanted to learn, and did not have an attitude they would help you all they could. One old timer, I think he was 63, I was 20, would take his lunch hour to explain things and try to teach me. I saw such beautiful conduit work - guys on this website make fun of that quality. It must be jealousy. Times change, conditions change, just because it is the new way does not necessarily mean better, generally it means it is faster. The last 20 years of my working career I spent correcting the mistakes made by engineering and construction before a new power plant could operate. I never blame these mistakes on the engineers or the construction electricians - it is the system in which we operate today. In to much of a hurry to do it right.
Never saw a bad s & t connection. Guess they must have been repaired. I am sure you really knew where the other end of that wire was before you took all that time to s & t... I found lots of mistakes with wire nuts connecting the wrong wires.

[brantmacga]

I am sure you really knew where the other end of that wire was before you took all that time to s & t... I found lots of mistakes with wire nuts connecting the wrong wires.

everyone should have a proper labeling system (i do this by crimping wires in a certain fashion) and a consistent method of wire placement; as in certain wires go in specific holes drilled above or below, the same way every time. and it has to be taught so that if one guy's pulling wire and another is making connections, he has no questions about what he's hooking up.

[don_resqcapt19]

e57,
It is my opinion that the solder does not just seal the point of contact, it completely coats the point of contact and is the current path.

[hillbilly]

(Whats that number 3.14????*R*2)

3.141592+


By the way.....Pie are not square......Pie are round:grin:

steve

Oh yea....Corn bread are square

[Mike03a3]

Flux..... But don't recommend acid flux.

Acid flux is for plumbers, not electricians.

[e57]

e57,
It is my opinion that the solder does not just seal the point of contact, it completely coats the point of contact and is the current path.

If you have two metallic items mashed together tight - as they should be - how does it get in there? It'll definately fill gaps yes - but get in between - no IMO.

I'm gonna have to go make a splice and grind it down - or pull it apart.....

Just took a grinder to one - exceptionally difficult to keep the temp down and not re-melt the solder - but in the gaps have solder - between, not that I can see between the wire where they are in contact - if there is it's microscopic....

[brantmacga]

If you have two metallic items mashed together tight - as they should be - how does it get in there? It'll definately fill gaps yes - but get in between - no IMO.

I'm gonna have to go make a splice and grind it down - or pull it apart.....

Just took a grinder to one - exceptionally difficult to keep the temp down and not re-melt the solder - but in the gaps have solder - between, not that I can see between the wire where they are in contact - if there is it's microscopic....


it could be possible that heat expansion allows the solder to get between the conductors. but it isn't enough to cause problems on a 15-20A branch circuit.

[e57]

I took 3 12's - pig-tailed and soldered it - then ground it down in a cross-section - I did not see any between conductors where there were pressed together. Not saying there wasn't any - but solder even hot is a viscous liquid - but did not appear to get into the flatened areas where the conductors where pressed by twisting them together.

[LarryFine]

By the way.....Pie are not square......Pie are round:grin:
Not in Sicily! :wink:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1233/1083278360_868cd3fe6e.jpg

[brantmacga]

I took 3 12's - pig-tailed and soldered it - then ground it down in a cross-section - I did not see any between conductors where there were pressed together. Not saying there wasn't any - but solder even hot is a viscous liquid - but did not appear to get into the flatened areas where the conductors where pressed by twisting them together.

don't be mistaken, i wasn't disagreeing with you. I believe you when you say there was no solder in the contact area; I can't recall ever seeing any there myself. I'm just saying it could be possible. But if someone where to heat the conductors enough to allow expansion between the contact area, they most likely did serious damage to the copper.

[aline]

Not in Sicily! :wink:

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1233/1083278360_868cd3fe6e.jpg
Thanks Larry. You just blew my diet. :)