Hello everyone

[dSilanskas]

Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size. :confused:

[Rewire]

Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size. :confused:
If you worked for me you would be fired for competing against me.They want a lowballer which is the biggest problem we have in our trade.

[dSilanskas]

To be honest with you my boss is totally cool with me doing side work we are not like that around here. I already talked to him about doing side work and he told me if I ever needed anything he wouldn't mind helping me. But thank you for your concern :rolleyes:

[Rewire]

To be honest with you my boss is totally cool with me doing side work we are not like that around here. I already talked to him about doing side work and he told me if I ever needed anything he wouldn't mind helping me. But thank you for your concern :rolleyes:
There is one born every minute you are lucky to work for one,well your boss can't complain when he can't get his needed price because he encouraged his employees to cut him off at the knees.When and if you ever own a legit business pay all the freight that goes with it then you will have earned the right to roll your eyes until then you are not part of the solution.

[dSilanskas]

You know Rewire I think you need to chill out! I am not here trying to start a fight with anyone I was just looking for some help. If your having problems finding work I am sorry but dont take it out on me. Also its just my boss most people are like that if your honest with your boss about doing a side job he is not going to cut your throat about trying to make some extra money. Sorry you feel the way you do :rolleyes:

[quogueelectric]

Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size. :confused:
Some bosses want thier employees to see first hand that it is not easy to run a buisness and it takes a lot of work and attention to detail. So they dont mind them doing small scale jobs on the side and many times will even file the permits for them.

[jimport]

Who is pulling the permit and supplying insurance?

There is more to this than just a little extra money without taxes.

[dnem]

There is one born every minute you are lucky to work for one,well your boss can't complain when he can't get his needed price because he encouraged his employees to cut him off at the knees.When and if you ever own a legit business pay all the freight that goes with it then you will have earned the right to roll your eyes until then you are not part of the solution.

Rewire,

It all depends on where he's getting his leads from. . If he's cultivating contacts on his paid job as an employee, those contacts should benefit his bosses company and ethics would require him not to find side work thru those channels. . That work / those leads should be directed to a bid thru the bosses company.

But if he's getting leads totally independent from his job, it's frankly none of the bosses business.

David

[ItsHot]

Here we go again!

[Rewire]

You know Rewire I think you need to chill out! I am not here trying to start a fight with anyone I was just looking for some help. If your having problems finding work I am sorry but dont take it out on me. Also its just my boss most people are like that if your honest with your boss about doing a side job he is not going to cut your throat about trying to make some extra money. Sorry you feel the way you do :rolleyes:
Wiring a house is not a "side job" it is a job one that is normally done by a residential contractor,hanging a ceiling fan is a "side job".Are you going to charge less for your labor than your boss has to charge thats not what is on your paycheck but the hourly rate he has to charge to cover expensise overhed and profit.,if not you will be driving down the price.

[dnem]

Some bosses want thier employees to see first hand that it is not easy to run a buisness and it takes a lot of work and attention to detail. So they dont mind them doing small scale jobs on the side and many times will even file the permits for them.

Good point !
Just make sure that you follow the laws of your state and rules of the AHJ which probably require regular physical supervision of the jobsite by the permit holder. . The permit holder also take on some liability.

David

[Vinniem]

are you licensed?

[Rewire]

Rewire,

It all depends on where he's getting his leads from. . If he's cultivating contacts on his paid job as an employee, those contacts should benefit his bosses company and ethics would require him not to find side work thru those channels. . That work / those leads should be directed to a bid thru the bosses company.

But if he's getting leads totally independent from his job, it's frankly none of the bosses business.

David
and if he smokes dope at home you probably think that is not his bosses business.

[dSilanskas]

I am not trying to start a huge fight here honest:mad: I will be pulling the permit and the lady who is a very good friend of my familys runs the branch around here. Its nothing shady by any means. Everything is legal and what not I was just looking for some advice is all. If this is going to start a huge argument than honestly its not worth it forget

[dnem]

Wiring a house is not a "side job" it is a job one that is normally done by a residential contractor,hanging a ceiling fan is a "side job".Are you going to charge less for your labor than your boss has to charge thats not what is on your paycheck but the hourly rate he has to charge to cover expensise overhed and profit.,if not you will be driving down the price.

Fine ! . It's not a "sidejob". . He has 2 jobs and one of them is self employed.

It all comes down to where the lead came from. . If the lead was cultivate independently, ethics isn't an issue and in the good old USA he can charge whatever he wishes to charge.

[romexking]

Just hire the person on this board that can wire an entire home in 20 hours, so no matter what you charge, you'll make money!

[electricmanscott]

Rewire, you should just mind your business and stop with the attacks. :rolleyes:

[dnem]

and if he smokes dope at home you probably think that is not his bosses business.

Is even a tiny amount of dope in the system of a doper when he hits the jobsite ?
Yes !
So it's his bosses business.
And if the boss provides medical insurance then he can even dictate certain things done at home.

David

[Rewire]

Everyone wants more pay and I would like to give it but the problem is we have a trade full of side jobbers who drive down the market sure 30 bucks an hour puts a little jingle in your pocket but do you think that when you charge that 30 the word wont get out that electricians can be had for 30 bucks an hour?

[dSilanskas]

30 bucks an hour! Wow rewire your cheap :D

[Rewire]

Rewire, you should just mind your business and stop with the attacks. :rolleyes:
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[dSilanskas]

I can tell my question wont find an answer here with all this anger but thanks anyways

[Lxnxjxhx]

Believe it or not, this is the "Tragedy of the Commons" from Game Theory.
There is no solution.

Here's the scene:
several farmers have their sheep graze the grass (charge the customers) in a common area (neighborhood, town, city, state, country). It is in the interest of the group to have all their sheep graze moderately, so the area doesn't become stripped. But it is in the interest of each farmer to have his sheep "pig out".

Another example:
a gunman holds many hostages. He has only six shots.
It is in the interest of the group to rush him, but it is not in the interest of the people in the front of the charge. There have been very few instances where the group charged the gunman.

#3:
It's in the interest of society that companies don't pollute, but each company does not want to pay the cost of cleanup equipment.

This gets played out all over the world, every single day.

Don't blame me, blame God; She did it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons

[dnem]

dSilanskas,

To answer your original question:

Don't fall into the $ per square foot trap. . It makes bidding a piece of cake but you lose your shirt on some jobs and lose the bid for others because you're too high. . Price it out per opening with separate prices for recessed cans and wiring/outlets larger than 12gauge. . Put in a number for the service, higher for a larger amp option. . If they want a square footage number, work up your price by the opening and divide it by the square foot afterward. . Make sure you're clear to the customer that the square foot number only applies to that particular bid.

David

[growler]

The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. :confused:

First off there is no set price for side work, if they get other side workers to bid the job then the bids will be all over the place.

If your boss is cool with this and I'm willing to take your word that he is then you should consult with your boss on what to charge. It could even be worth a small fee ($200 if you get the job ) to have your boss bid the job ( give ideas on what would be normal price ) for you as a consultant.

The reason I say this is because he will have a better idea of what to charge than anyone on this forum. He's in the area and will have and idea of what you should and could get.

If you don't want to charge full price because these are friends of yours then at least you would know what the job would normally go for.

[dSilanskas]

dnem thank you so much that was all i was looking for :)

[Rewire]

dSilanskas,

To answer your original question:

Don't fall into the $ per square foot trap. . It makes bidding a piece of cake but you lose your shirt on some jobs and lose the bid for others because you're too high. . Price it out per opening with separate prices for recessed cans and wiring/outlets larger than 12gauge. . Put in a number for the service, higher for a larger amp option. . If they want a square footage number, work up your price by the opening and divide it by the square foot afterward. . Make sure you're clear to the customer that the square foot number only applies to that particular bid.

David
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[aline]

Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size. :confused:
To be honest with you my boss is totally cool with me doing side work we are not like that around here. I already talked to him about doing side work and he told me if I ever needed anything he wouldn't mind helping me. But thank you for your concern
If your boss is cool with you doing this side job why not have him help you with the estimate and bid?

You could show him the prints and he could help you estimate and bid it.
Then you could see how he does it. Unless he doesn't know how to estimate and bid it either. :)

[220/221]

It is simple math.


A) How many hours/days will it take to do the job?

B) How much do you want to charge per hour?

A x B = your bid.



If you are asking how long it will take, we will need at least the sq footage.




PS. I could not have survived my early years without side jobs.

[emahler]

Hey everyone hope your all having a great day! I had a odd request and didn't know if you guys could please give me some input. Well someone called me about doing a side job. The side job was wiring a house and they where going to buy all the stock needed which is great and all but they just wanted me to put a bid on labor to wire the house. Hmm kinda hard I dont know how I would go about doing this because to be totally honest I never had a side job of wiring a house before. I need to touch base with them to get the plans but my question is how would you guys do this? I am sorry I just never had to bid before for a side job of this size. :confused:

Everyone wants more pay and I would like to give it but the problem is we have a trade full of side jobbers who drive down the market sure 30 bucks an hour puts a little jingle in your pocket but do you think that when you charge that 30 the word wont get out that electricians can be had for 30 bucks an hour?

rewire, the problem with this industry is that guys can't add 2 and 2, let alone complex math problems....

side work affects all of us (http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=88746)
Okay I just passed my J Man's exam on the 17th of this month. Now the company that I work for is small it is my boss and myself. Well when I got my license I was so excited because that meant more money or so I thought.... Well I haven't gotten a raise or any insurance of any kind what so ever. I asked him about it and he said that things will take some time to change. Now I dont know about what part you guys are from but here in MA my boss is middle of the road he is charging $135 an hour for two men him and me but now that I am licensed I think that I should be making more money at least $20 I mean I am not even making that with no insurance or anything. I have been with him for five years not and I dont want to leave him because I am a loyal worker but I dont know what to do if he is not going to be giving me a raise. Any advice?

so, while i understand that you are legal as a journeyman in MA to work on your own...just remember, you can not have your cake and eat it too...good luck...

[bradleyelectric]

,hanging a ceiling fan is a "side job".

No its not, its a job for the service truck.

[Rewire]

No its not, its a job for the service truck.
That should have been "hanging a ceiling fan for your grandma"and only if you are paid in cookies

[SiddMartin]

That should have been "hanging a ceiling fan for your grandma"and only if you are paid in cookies

thats funny

[dnem]

It is simple math.


A) How many hours/days will it take to do the job?

B) How much do you want to charge per hour?

A x B = your bid.



If you are asking how long it will take, we will need at least the sq footage.

That's a bad idea ! . I've spent an hour in a kitchen on a rough and I've spent 6 hours in a kitchen on a rough, both kitchens same square footage.

[nakulak]

I stopped reading the replies after the 2nd page, but if I were you I'd ask your boss how to price it, get him to help you out, and throw him a couple bucks when you get paid.

then everyone's happy.

I worked for myself for a long time, and I guess I don't get all the issues that other people have with work. If you can swing the insurance and licensing, don't let anyone tell you you can't do it. Keep your customers happy, and you will get free referrals and repeat business. (and by happy, that doesn't mean that you cut everyone's price in half, it means you did a great job).

In my humble very idiotic and stupid opinion, all residential work, (other than developments and condo buildings etc) should be classified as side work.

[dnem]

I dug up my residential bid sheet from my contractor days.

LV
first doorbell = $
# of additional doorbells x $ = ?
# of garage door openers x $ = ?
# of fireplaces x $ = ?
# of cable +/or phones x $ = ?

Recessed
# of bathroom exhaust fans x $ = ?
# of recessed light/fan combos x $ = ?
# of recessed can lights x $ = ?
# of slanted or eyeball recessed can lights x $ = ?

Dedicated 120v GFCI appliance/utility
# of 35a or less Whirlpools x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a Whirlpools x $ = ?

all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ = ?
# of conduit fed openings x $ = ?
[romex overhead, conduit wall sleave and a steel box and raised cover]
# of smoke detectors x $ = ?

240v appliance/utility
# of 35a or less appliances x $ = ?
# of 40a to 60a appliances x $ = ?

Service
100 amp = $
150 amp = $
200 amp = $
300 amp = $
400 amp = $

Temp Pole
temp = $

Decide what price you'll plugin for each $
For:
all Other 120v electrical openings
# of romex fed openings x $ =
You'll need the print and a ruler to scale off 2,6,12 for plugs [210.52(A)(2)(1) for 2' + 210.52(A)(1) for the 6'+12'].
Scale the kitchen cabinet sheet for the counter plugs, 1,2,4 [210.52(C)].
The print or a customer walk thru for switch locations and recessed can locations.
Your price per category should go up for changes after the walkthru, especially if you've already started the rough.
Don't force custom or unusual stuff into any general category. . Handle them separately.

This is an idea that you can use as a starting point to customize your own bid sheet. . It helps you not forget stuff and breaks the bid down into manageable categories.

David

[mivey]

I agree with the other posts that say to get your boss to help you. He knows he won't live forever and new people must learn the trade as well. He sounds like a nice guy.

Also, as a sanity check, you could get one of the estimating guides (like RS Means) that lists the labor hours for a lot of what you will do. You can use these times, along with what you want to make per hour, to compare with your boss's estimate. See if he will talk with you about the differences.

As your boss knows, and as you will learn, the times listed in these books are by no means (no pun intended) the gospel. Keep up with the time you spend. At the end, sit down with your boss and discuss the differences in his estimate, what you got from the estimating guide, and your actual time. He seems like he might be willing to teach.

[dnem]

I agree with the other posts that say to get your boss to help you. He knows he won't live forever and new people must learn the trade as well. He sounds like a nice guy.

Sometimes there's other reasons for the boss to make that move, other than being old or being a nice guy. . When I first got into business I got into a conversation with a fellow contractor while we both were waiting at a supply house. . We "hit it off", as the saying goes. . In a short time we were subbing to each other as our individual companies work load varied up and down. . It was a great mutual arrangement until he closed up.

After that I had an employee and job foreman that was very competent electrician but he would show up late for work 2 to 3 times a week up to an hour and a half late. . And it was progressively getting worse. . He worked hard and would stay for 8 hours but he was commonly MIA to start the day. . All attempts to straighten him out failed. . His days as my employee had reached the end.

My final solution was to offer to sub contract any overflow work out to him. . I would help him with bidding including jobs that didn't come from me. . I even offered to provide him with some man power that I would cover on my payroll and subtract from what I owed him for the subbed work.

He was too afraid to leave a guaranteed weekly pay check and didn't take the deal. . We shook hands and said goodbye. . He got another job elsewhere.

Life works out better when you look at a persons ambition as a possibility instead of a threat. . If they're willing to handle themselves ethically, they can be a resource and even a friend instead of an enemy.

David

[ITO]

If HOs knew how much exposure they have doing this sort of deal, they wouldn't do it.

The guy next door to me hired a kid from the neighborhood to mow his lawn, who then proceeded to trip over a garden hose and break his wrist. His parents and their layer worked his insurance over until it was gone then went after him on a work comp claim.

The scary part is, this same kid used to mow my lawn too.

[macmikeman]

Also, as a sanity check, you could get one of the estimating guides (like RS Means) that lists the labor hours for a lot of what you will do.

What??? Use RS Means for bidding a residential job??? If I did that I might turn a profit on the job. The builders would never stand for that. :grin:

[growler]

If HOs knew how much exposure they have doing this sort of deal, they wouldn't do it.

I have been wondering how this sort of thing would be handled myself.

He can legally pull the permit and wire the house so he is really a contractor. In this state a contractor can't sue the homeowner if he is hurt on the job. If he was an unlicensed laborer he could.

This in only side work because he is employed by someone during normal working hours. I think the journeyman ( legal contractor ) would be assuming the risk on his one but I really don't know.

[ITO]

Anyone can employ a master electrician to pull a permit for you but that does not make the electrician a contractor.

Does he have a contractor's license?
Does he have a tax ID?
Does he have a DBA?
Does he have any state mandated insurance to be contracting?
Is there a contract or written agreement?

These are just some of the stuff the lawyers will be asking that defines whether or not the electrician is a contractor.

[growler]

Anyone can employ a master electrician to pull a permit for you but that does not make the electrician a contractor.


In the state of MA he doesn't have to hire a master to pull a permit he can pull one under his own license and for this reason I think he would be considered a contractor. He will have all the rights of a contractor so I think he will end up with all the same responsibilities as any other contractor.

He really isn't a side worker but a part time contractor. The only person that can have any objections is his boss. As far as the state is concerned he is legal.

[ITO]

...He really isn't a side worker but a part time contractor. The only person that can have any objections is his boss. As far as the state is concerned he is legal.

Interesting theory, I would not want to be a HO in court testing it as I pay my lawyer by the hour.

Just because you accept cash for your services, does not make you a contractor.

What laws in MA are there for mandated insurance for contractors?

In Texas all contractors are required to be licensed as such, the line is not so fuzzy here.

[iwire]

What laws in MA are there for mandated insurance for contractors?

All I need as far as the licensing end is a Journeyman or Masters license and liability insurance, at that point I can pull permits and run work.

I do not know about any further requirements for the taxes etc. but I imagine there must be.

[emahler]

All I need as far as the licensing end is a Journeyman or Masters license and liability insurance, at that point I can pull permits and run work.

I do not know about any further requirements for the taxes etc. but I imagine there must be.

the bold words are pretty important...

and as an aside, if the OP does this job for $1 less than his current boss would charge, he is part of the problem..his boss already doesn't charge enough to pay the OP the wage he wants...so he better not undercut him...

[iwire]

the bold words are pretty important...

In MA you must have liability insurance to pull a permit, but last I knew it was only $300,000.00 required.

The other option is the customer can sign a waiver of that insurance, I personally can't see asking a paying customer to even consider that.

[ITO]

The point I was trying to make, is that most Home Owners looking for a "deal" are only interested in the price and may not realize how much exposure they have doing this. There is a lot to be said for making sure whomever you hire to work in your home is a legitimate business with all the instruments that should be in place to protect their own best interest, but sadly sometimes people have to learn lessons the hard way.

[iwire]

There is a lot to be said for making sure whomever you hire to work in your home is a legitimate business with all the instruments that should be in place to protect their own best interest, but sadly sometimes people have to learn lessons the hard way.

I agree, but at the same time many more times they do get a deal and they have no problems. The truth is even when people hire 'legitimate' contractors there can be trouble.

The few times I have hired people to work at my house they have been 'legitimate' contractors and I asked to see proof of insurance, workers comp etc.

[electricmanscott]

In my humble very idiotic and stupid opinion, all residential work, (other than developments and condo buildings etc) should be classified as side work.


You are correct on two points here. Which ones? Your opinion is very idiotic and stupid. :D If you were serious disregard my smile and insert :rolleyes:

[jrannis]

OK back to the origional question.
I can tell that the person wanting the work done is someone that is being a bit cautious about the work and doesn’t want to get screwed.
1. Start out understanding that you need to net about $1000 per day, any less than that, you are part of the problem.
2. If its going to take you four days to rough the house, 4 grand. Get paid at the end of the rough. Best case is to get paid one or two grand up front, then the balance when you are done with that portion.
3. Next part is the trim out. How many days? Three? Three grand. Changes?
4. $90to $120 per hour will cover your grand per day goal.
If they want to do it, great.
I would not consider working for any less in your area.

[dnem]

If HOs knew how much exposure they have doing this sort of deal, they wouldn't do it.

The guy next door to me hired a kid from the neighborhood to mow his lawn, who then proceeded to trip over a garden hose and break his wrist. His parents and their layer worked his insurance over until it was gone then went after him on a work comp claim.

The scary part is, this same kid used to mow my lawn too.

All of the comments about liability are certainly legit and I hope dSilanskas gets the necessary insurance and handles himself ethically in all ways but, to be totally honest, damage can be inflicted by anybody.

Does he have a contractor's license?
Does he have a tax ID?
Does he have a DBA?
Does he have any state mandated insurance to be contracting?
Is there a contract or written agreement?

I've been screwed by general contractors that had years of experience, licensed, tax ID, DBA, insured, contract. . I've been to court with lawyers and found out the hard way how many run their scam. . I've been on the losing end of the "shell game" and lost many times more than the price of dSilanskas job.

Anybody can screw the homeowner. . Anybody can slap on a bogus lien that takes money to fight. . Anybody can not pay the insurance and let it lapse. . Anybody can skip out on the subs and leave the homeowner with a lien on his house.

Anybody can screw the small contractor . Anybody can play the multicompany "shell game" and plot to have all of the subs contracted to the company that is "suddenly" and "unexplainably" broke and bankrupt while the general drives off the continue on with the other big money companies in his shell game group.

The story of the broken wrist lawn mower is completely disgusting. . But the level of damage is "kids play" compared to what is being done to the honest small business man everyday. . The small business man is the backbone of this country and gets screwed daily. . His losses can be staggering.

Everybody starts small with their first house just like dSilanskas. . It's not about how large or small you are. . It's about your ethics. . It's about doing the right thing.

I don't dispute that the kid mowing lawns or the "one man band" electrician just starting out can screw you. . But I'm honestly not that worried. . I've taken the big hit and I know now who I should really worry about.

David

[dnem]

1. Start out understanding that you need to net about $1000 per day, any less than that, you are part of the problem.

Wow ! . I need to get back into contracting !

[satcom]

Wow ! . I need to get back into contracting !

Sounds great until you find that 90% of that is overhead, and operating costs, your lucky to to keep $20 out of a grand.

[emahler]

Sounds great until you find that 90% of that is overhead, and operating costs, your lucky to to keep $20 out of a grand.

ironically, practical math is frowned on by this industry....

[ITO]

... I've taken the big hit and I know now who I should really worry about.

David

Agreed GCs are the master a screwing the customers and the subs but they have also learned the hard way to do everything they can to manage their exposure, and the fact of the matter is there are some simple protections a legitimate contractor brings to the table that are sometimes overlooked because that guy doing side work is so cheap.

If you invited someone into your home to do work that is not insured you have considerable exposure, as apposed to hiring a bonded contractor.

If the side work guy slips in your kitchen and busts his head, guess who’s insurance pays for the medical bills? Yours.

Same scenario, only this time it’s a bonded contractor; after busting his head he files a work comp claim on his own insurance.

If a side work guy burns your house down, you get to file on your own insurance, if a bonded contractor burns your house down his insurance pays for the damage.

[Rewire]

If a side work guy burns your house down, you get to file on your own insurance, if
If you are in an area that requires a permit be pulled and the side guy doesn't do it then your insurance can refuse to pay.

[ITO]

If a side work guy burns your house down, you get to file on your own insurance, if
If you are in an area that requires a permit be pulled and the side guy doesn't do it then your insurance can refuse to pay.

Oh yeah there is some major exposure created by the home owner all in an effort to save a buck.

[satcom]

Oh yeah there is some major exposure created by the home owner all in an effort to save a buck.

Not the same in all states, and not the same with different insurance companies, some pay, some fight it, the stock insurance companies may fight it, a lot of them have clauses in their policies that underwriting is dependent on following all building codes, and obtaining permits where required, or language to that effect, a lot of the mutual companies don't have any restrictions and just pay out claims, I can remember thru the years insurance investigators comming to fire company, looking for records, and we would direct them to the city attorney office. So when you work on the side, you better make sure your well covered, if the liability comes back on you, you may be facing some big probation payments if you loose the case.

Most don't look at the tragic side, they feel it will not be them that it happens to. Well check on the facts and you may change your thinking.

Many times the homeowners policy pays, then their insurance company goes after mr side job for the loss recovery.

[marissa2]

Didn't someone from Mass not to long ago post a copy of a Mass permit about this same subject on insurance. And on the permit there was a line that the homeowner could sign off about knowing that the person doing the work doesn't have the required insurance. I printed the copy myself but I din't have anymore.
Lou

[satcom]

Didn't someone from Mass not to long ago post a copy of a Mass permit about this same subject on insurance. And on the permit there was a line that the homeowner could sign off about knowing that the person doing the work doesn't have the required insurance. I printed the copy myself but I din't have anymore.
Lou

And what homeowner in their right frame of thinking, would release anyone working in their home from liability. Which brings up another point, what homeowner, would let anyone without workers comp coverage, work on their property

The whole idea of consumer protection laws, are to protect the homeowner, not the contractor.

[dnem]

Not the same in all states, and not the same with different insurance companies, some pay, some fight it, the stock insurance companies may fight it, a lot of them have clauses in their policies that underwriting is dependent on following all building codes, and obtaining permits where required, or language to that effect, a lot of the mutual companies don't have any restrictions and just pay out claims, I can remember thru the years insurance investigators comming to fire company, looking for records, and we would direct them to the city attorney office.

We get insurance companies that call our building department to request inspection records. . Freedom of information act says we must provide what they ask for. . Many homeowners don't realize that they've paid for year after year for insurance that they don't actually have after the insurance company finds out what work was done without inspection.

Liability is a huge issue !

I hope dSilanskas and other startup guys take note of the legal/insurance liability and the ease at which they can get screwed by the "professionals", the GCs that "play the game" everyday and walk over everybody in their path on the way to bigger and bigger money.

David

[dnem]

And what homeowner in their right frame of thinking, would release anyone working in their home from liability. Which brings up another point, what homeowner, would let anyone without workers comp coverage, work on their property

Homeowners don't even think about it. . If you brought it up in front of most of them, a large percentage would say, "Oh Yeah, forgot about that !" and a large percentage would look at you with a confused look on their face.

David

[j_erickson]

Yes, in MA the owner of a property can sign a waiver so that the permit holder does not need liability insurance.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

If a side work guy burns your house down, you get to file on your own insurance, if If you are in an area that requires a permit be pulled and the side guy doesn't do it then your insurance can refuse to pay.
I'll believe that when someone cites ONE verifiable case of it happening, Until then, this is just an urban legend used to drum up sales.

[cowboyjwc]

Sounds great until you find that 90% of that is overhead, and operating costs, your lucky to to keep $20 out of a grand.

If you're married you won't even keep that:D

[dSilanskas]

I have liability insurance :) and I do have a business because that is the only way I could get insurance. But I work for someone else does that make any sense?

[satcom]

I have liability insurance :) and I do have a business because that is the only way I could get insurance. But I work for someone else does that make any sense?

Your not doing side jobs, your building a business the slow hard way.

[j_erickson]

Without reading the whole thread, is this job for a homeowner or a GC?

[hardworkingstiff]

I just couln't read all the posts in this thread but did want to say this.

Anytime a customer wants to supply material, it's OK with me. I just figure out how much profit I would make on the material, and add 80% of it to the labor part of the job (I'll give up 20% of the profit on materials if I don't have to buy them). Labor is lump sum, no hourly breakdown. The customer is responsible for doing the take-offs, and there are demurage charges if materials on not on site.

I don't get too many jobs where the customer supplies the materials. I guess I'm too hard to get along with.

[dSilanskas]

The job is for a contractor not a homeowner. They are supplying everything

[George Stolz]

I am closing this thread, at the request of the OP (after I asked).

To all, bear in mind that if a thread completely derails on you, and you want something done about it, you need to report posts or PM a moderator.

I salute D for standing his ground and salute those who helped him. I am disappointed with the repeated attack that Rewire mounted in the early part of this thread. I just read this through for the first time just now, and was amazed. http://forums.mikeholt.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

One person's definition of sidework may well be legal, licensed, insured work for profit, no different than a regular EC. A beginner EC just asked for some help, and was drowned out with misinformed malice, and that irritates the by-garsh out of me. That was my Ned Flanders statement of the day.