Inspectors missing code violations.......

[c2500]

I had previously posted about my buddy who had his house wired for $4700. Anyway, the drywall is now going up. The electrical rough in passed. However, there were several things the inspector missed. 20 cu inch boxes that will be over filled when the device is installed. No nail plates....anywhere...even when they would be legally required due to the obvious angle cut that puts the wire 1/4" into the stud. (I hope the drywall guys send a screw thru) The box to the right of the sink is to far away. A piece of nm riding the back of the dryer duct (not sure if its a violation, but it is a poor wiring technique.) A water supply line literally resting on top of a can light.

The thing that gets me is the inspector is normally super picky. I normally pass when he inspects my work, but I know he checks everything closely. I am amazed at what he let slide. Of course I am wondering when he comes back for final will he fail due to the receptacle being to far from the sink.

To make things even more interesting, the HVAC passed. That is even though one return had no mastic on it. I have always held the city inspectors here in high regard, but I am really questioning things given what they let slide. Worse yet, I have heard from an HVAC guy I know that he has been hearing inspectors are getting payed off.

I am even more disappointed that my friend, who is a licensed builder (though he pulled the permit as owner/builder) did not seem concerned about the mistakes. I guess making a lick on his last house has has him thinking he can do a real cheap job and still get $200+ a square foot.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.

c2500

[Rewire]

Those who can do ,those who can't teach,those who are brain damaged inspect.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Inspectors don't check 100% of every job. He missed an overfilled box? You're faulting him for that? ONE duct missing mastic? C'mon man...

[iwire]

Rewire, Is that a joke?

It is hard to tell from this end.

[roger]

Those who can do ,those who can't teach,those who are brain damaged inspect.

Please explain this statement.

It seems you are having a bad day.

Roger

[c2500]

Inspectors don't check 100% of every job. He missed an overfilled box? You're faulting him for that? ONE duct missing mastic? C'mon man...

No, A Return, not a duct. As in a gaping 14" hole that had no mastic. You would be blind to have missed it. Multiple over filled boxes, not just one.

Having had this inspector count my wires in a box before, I kinda expect to have the same thing done to everyone. Or maybe I am being picky?

c2500

[bphgravity]

I teach and inspect, so I guess I know how Rewire feels about me...



In general, I feel many building departments do not properly train their employees and do not provide enough continuing education and specialized training.

It's all about shrinking budgets Departments are required to do alot more with much less. This means multi-certified inspectors that may not be completely competent and fluent in all the codes and standards for all the trades they are permitted to inspect. In some cases, inspectors are given 30-40 inspections a day which results in a very low level of service.

Keep in mind that every profession has its bums and its superstars. Just llok at professional sports and lawyers. Some are great, some not so great...

Perhaps your friend should hire a private inspection company to provide quality control inspections...

[cowboyjwc]

I teach and inspect, so I guess I know how Rewire feels about me...



In general, I feel many building departments do not properly train their employees and do not provide enough continuing education and specialized training.

It's all about shrinking budgets Departments are required to do alot more with much less. This means multi-certified inspectors that may not be completely competent and fluent in all the codes and standards for all the trades they are permitted to inspect. In some cases, inspectors are given 30-40 inspections a day which results in a very low level of service.

Keep in mind that every profession has its bums and its superstars. Just llok at professional sports and lawyers. Some are great, some not so great...

Perhaps your friend should hire a private inspection company to provide quality control inspections...

I agree with Bryan. I just got back from the California Electrical Inspectors meeting, where I picked up 20 hours of CEUs, and there were 40 people in attendance, that includes contractors, NECA, NFPA, several testing labs, ICC, etc. 40! we used to have 100+ attend. I can tell you that most of the guys at the meeting were not the guys who needed the training.

[augie47]

since you have had experience with this inspector, you know that is not his "norm". Inspectors, as electricians, can have bad days also, plus, I'm sure if someone followed me and checked closely, they could find items I miss each day.
If this H.O. is truly a "buddy", you should point out the defeciencies (rather than hoping for a screw failure).
In regard to the outlet spacing, my experience has been that if the inspector "misses" at rough-in, it must still be addressed.
In the end, the contractor is responsible for the job meeting the Code, the inspector is just another set of eyes.

[c2500]

Augie,

My "mentor" and I toured the house. My mentor wanted to see what $4700 would buy as he would have charged a whole lot more (as would I). My buddy did not seem concerned. Which is some of my disappointment. He used to be a good builder. He is the reason I have a builder's license. (Well he vouched for me and I passed the tests) Now he ranks with the ones that want to turn a buck. It is sad to see people accepting substandard work because it was "cheap" Sadly, it is also showing up in the workmanship from his cabinet shop. Gotta start looking around for another source due to ever increasing prices with decreasing quality.

But hey lets remember that infamous phrase...."It is wired to code!"

c2500

[cowboyjwc]

Augie,

My "mentor" and I toured the house. My mentor wanted to see what $4700 would buy as he would have charged a whole lot more (as would I). My buddy did not seem concerned. Which is some of my disappointment. He used to be a good builder. He is the reason I have a builder's license. (Well he vouched for me and I passed the tests) Now he ranks with the ones that want to turn a buck. It is sad to see people accepting substandard work because it was "cheap" Sadly, it is also showing up in the workmanship from his cabinet shop. Gotta start looking around for another source due to ever increasing prices with decreasing quality.

But hey lets remember that infamous phrase...."It is wired to code!"

c2500

When you're paying for the minimum, anything less than that is going to be bad.

That's why I like inspecting guys with high standards. Even when something happens and it doesn't meet their standards, it still better than some peoples best work.:)

[kkwong]

When you're paying for the minimum, anything less than that is going to be bad.

Too true...

That's why I like inspecting guys with high standards. Even when something happens and it doesn't meet their standards, it still better than some peoples best work.:)

I think that is true everywhere but there is also a fine line between high standards and being picky :)

[mdshunk]

I say this with some reservation, but I know that many guys will know exactly where I'm coming from. Part of being profitable in certain market areas is knowing what parts of the code will not be enforced, and which parts are only loosely enforced. Naturally, you don't have to work like that, but certain realities prevail in some areas. The flip side of that is knowing what things are enforced in some areas that aren't in the code at all, but you have to do them to keep peace. My boxes of "Maryland staples" for fixing NM cable in MD comes to mind.

[satcom]

It is not the inspectors job, to pick apart a job, when a job is called in for inspection, you are saying, I am a qualified person, and supervised, or did this job, and because of my knowladge and skills, the work should meet all the code standards, ready for inspecton, not call the inspector to teach you how to do your job, but rather have him look over the job, not tare it abart looking for problems, the inspector should be in and out, and not have to look at every piece of the job, that is your job and you are in the end, liabile for the outcome, not the inspector.

If you having too many violations, it may be time to hit the books.

[wbalsam1]

Those who can do ,those who can't teach,those who are brain damaged inspect.

Those that ridicule, generalize and stigmatize.....where would you have them????

[infinity]

Those who can do ,those who can't teach,those who are brain damaged inspect.


Although I've dealt with my share of lousy inspectors I consider your statement to be a low blow, especially given the knowledge that many inspectors on this forum possess. Care to print a retraction?

[satcom]

Although I've dealt with my share of lousy inspectors I consider your statement to be a low blow, especially given the knowledge that many inspectors on this forum possess. Care to print a retraction?

You have to remember we are in New Jersey, where the inspectors have worked in the trade, and have a record of experience, are tested, and certified, they also have CEU requirements to maintain, In my opinion we have some of the best qualified inspectors.

There are parts of the country, where the inspectors do not have to meet any base measure, of experience, or knowladge in the field, and some even trainned in other trades, but doing electrical inspections.

[iwire]

satcom, there is still no reason for Rewire's comment.

It is uncalled for and unprofessional.

[infinity]

satcom, there is still no reason for Rewire's comment.

It is uncalled for and unprofessional.


Thanks Bob, that was my point.

[satcom]

Thanks Bob, that was my point.

I can understand some of the feelings, where the guys have inspection problems, but his comment was uncalled for, there are areas of the country, where inspections are unprofessional.

[HaskinsElectric]

when a job is called in for inspection, you are saying, I am a qualified person, and supervised, or did this job, and because of my knowladge and skills, the work should meet all the code standards, ready for inspecton,

Actually, inspection request forms contain no such language.

[hardworkingstiff]

Although I've dealt with my share of lousy inspectors I consider your statement to be a low blow, especially given the knowledge that many inspectors on this forum possess. Care to print a retraction?

I agree and await that retraction too.

[satcom]

Actually, inspection request forms contain no such language.

Who claimed that to be information on an inspection form?

Are you saying they should have a statement ro remind the contractor what he should already understand?

[HaskinsElectric]

Who claimed that to be information on an inspection form?

Are you saying they should have a statement ro remind the contractor what he should already understand?

I believe all that is implied in an inspection request is that a fee has been paid and a city employee will be dispatched to examine the job in question. As far as a "qualified person" and "knowledge and skills" and "meet all the code standards" goes, I'm pretty sure most experienced Inspectors no longer have any such expectations.

Obtaining inspections is an inconvenience and an expense, nothing more. The guys that actually need their work inspected don't obtain permits in the first place so it's really a very inefficient approach to public safety.

Construction workers and truck drivers are the only occupations where the Government must sign off on every thing you do. All other occupations are populated by people who are considered trustworthy enough not to require such micromanagement.

I don't consider calling for an inspection anything special, I don't need a government worker to validate the fact that I do good work, in fact, I make an effort to conceal my contempt for the Inspector when he's counting wires in my boxes or looking for safety plates.

I know I'm addressing many more issues than you brought up, but I guess I just view inspections as a PITA. I don't need them and the guys that do seldom get them. :mad:

[iwire]

If inspections were not needed inspectors would not be finding violations.

The argument that inspections don't work because some get around them makes no sense.

It would be like saying lift all speed limits because some people speed anyway.

[chris kennedy]

I guess I just view inspections as a PITA.
I enjoy my conversations with my inspectors. Always learn something. Most are quite sharp.

[HaskinsElectric]

If inspections were not needed inspectors would not be finding violations.

The argument that inspections don't work because some get around them makes no sense.

It would be like saying lift all speed limits because some people speed anyway.

Do *you* require a government mandated maximum allowable speed in order to drive a car safely? Do *you* need an Inspector to ensure that you do quality work? Obviously the answer to these questions is no. I'm not arguing for the elimination of laws and rules, I'm saying that in a small way, I resent the fact that I share the planet with people who do need to be tightly controlled and as a result, I am inconvenienced.

Obviously my view is self centered and narcissistic, but that's part of my charm. :)

[mdshunk]

People, as a group, who fail to regulate themselves will be regulated. That's just how it is. Once such regulation comes into play, it will never be repealed. That's just history.

[HaskinsElectric]

I enjoy my conversations with my inspectors. Always learn something. Most are quite sharp.

I've have met a few inspectors worthy of my admiration, but for the most part, they conduct themselves as if we have an adversarial relationship. I calmly explain to them that "we are on the same team" and share the same goals, this usually calms them down and makes them less strident in their enforcement efforts.

[HaskinsElectric]

People, as a group, who fail to regulate themselves will be regulated. That's just how it is. Once such regulation comes into play, it will never be repealed. That's just history.

Wow, this is the most profound statement I've read on this forum. How very true.

[e57]

The thing that gets me is the inspector is normally super picky. I normally pass when he inspects my work, but I know he checks everything closely. I am amazed at what he let slide.
c2500

Well its obvious that you dont disract him with idle talk - Your buddy probably handed the job card to him after a half hour of talking about the weather - or something.... - It works! :D

[iwire]

Do *you* require a government mandated maximum allowable speed in order to drive a car safely?

Yes, I would drive to fast for conditions.

Even on the Autobahn without a speed limit they enforce the other rules very aggressively to make the road safer.

Do *you* need an Inspector to ensure that you do quality work?

Obviously I do as I have had to make corrections to work done by people under me.

I resent the fact that I share the planet with people who do need to be tightly controlled and as a result, I am inconvenienced.

Well I can understand that, I am bothered by the fact people use the street in front of my home but that comes with living in populated area.

[mivey]

...Even on the Autobahn without a speed limit...When I went to Europe, we landed in Holland. I had always heard the Autobahn had no speed limit. When I got on the "autobahn", I was giving it all it was worth!. When we met up with some friends later in Holland, I told them I was ejoying driving with no speed limit. No! No! they told me, Holland has a speed limit. They quickly explained that "autobahn" was a general term and that I would find an autobahn with no limit in Germany.

True enough, when we got to Germany, I got on the "autobahn". The rental car I had would only reach 110 mph but the Mercedes and some of the other cars were passing me like I was standing still!

My wife did not enjoy the "autobahn" one bit!:)

[edit:typo]

[wbalsam1]

...... As far as a "qualified person" and "knowledge and skills" and "meet all the code standards" goes, I'm pretty sure most experienced Inspectors no longer have any such expectations.

Here you seem to allow that there is such an entity as the "experienced Inspector", and that such "experience" would teach an inspector that there are no such things as "qualified person(s)", "knowledge and skills" and/or the meeting of all the code standards. In my interpretation of your statement, you are 1): validating the existence of experienced inspectors, and 2): supporting the need for inspections and, 3): positing a demonstration, at some degree, of projected paranoia an "experienced" inspector would cast on his/her clients.

...Obtaining inspections is an inconvenience and an expense, nothing more. .....
This flies in the face of your previous statement.

...I don't consider calling for an inspection anything special, I don't need a government worker to validate the fact that I do good work, in fact, I make an effort to conceal my contempt for the Inspector when he's counting wires in my boxes or looking for safety plates.
As you readily attest to, there is little doubt you have contempt issues with your work being inspected, but I doubt these issues are actually with inspectors...I can't speak for you, but many who have contempt for inspectors and the important role they play actually have issues with "grandiosity" and "self-image" and project these shortcomings onto inspectors in an effort to prop themselves up by knocking the inspectors down. I experience this routinely on the job.

[romexking]

I say this with some reservation, but I know that many guys will know exactly where I'm coming from. Part of being profitable in certain market areas is knowing what parts of the code will not be enforced, and which parts are only loosely enforced. Naturally, you don't have to work like that, but certain realities prevail in some areas. The flip side of that is knowing what things are enforced in some areas that aren't in the code at all, but you have to do them to keep peace. My boxes of "Maryland staples" for fixing NM cable in MD comes to mind.

Can you tell me what "Maryland staples" are? Since this thread already has inspectors upset, you can PM me the answer.

Thanks,

Rich

[satcom]

When someone thinks they out smarted an inspector, they are only fooling themself, the person responsible for the job compliance, is not the inspector, it is the person doing the work.

[lbwireman]

Marc,
I too am curious re: "Maryland staples". I've never heard the term before. 'Course that might have to do with the fact that I strictly a "left coast" electrician. I would also welcome a PM of enlightenment re: this term. Thanks
Sean

[peter d]

Around here, we have "Massachusetts staples" as MA has a local code amendment requiring all staples to be insulated. However, due to the small size of New England states almost everyone in southern New England anyway uses the insulated staples that are manufactured in MA (and from another company just over the line in southern New Hampshire.)

[c2500]

Well its obvious that you dont disract him with idle talk - Your buddy probably handed the job card to him after a half hour of talking about the weather - or something.... - It works! :D

Hmmm...maybe I need to be more social :D

c2500

[wireman71]

I'm with Satcom. The inspector isn't there to hold our hands.

[HaskinsElectric]

Edited by me to remove maniacal rantings. Move along. Nothing to see here.

[iwire]

Edited by me to remove maniacal rantings. Move along. Nothing to see here.

Man .... I always miss the good stuff. :grin:

[peter d]

Man .... I always miss the good stuff. :grin:

And it was good too, let me tell you. :D

[wireman71]

To bad there isn't a way to get a cached page from google... Probably already updated.. Hmmm...

[cowboyjwc]

I think that is true everywhere but there is also a fine line between high standards and being picky :)

I do agree with that. I love it when guys start telling you "I did this and that and the other" and you just look at it and say "why?" Though it does make it easier to inspect.

Thanks to everyone that stood up for the inspectors, even if it was just the other inspectors. :)

[Mike03a3]

Marc,
I too am curious re: "Maryland staples". I've never heard the term before. 'Course that might have to do with the fact that I strictly a "left coast" electrician. I would also welcome a PM of enlightenment re: this term. Thanks
Sean

Me three, please

[jimport]

I say this with some reservation, but I know that many guys will know exactly where I'm coming from. Part of being profitable in certain market areas is knowing what parts of the code will not be enforced, and which parts are only loosely enforced. Naturally, you don't have to work like that, but certain realities prevail in some areas. The flip side of that is knowing what things are enforced in some areas that aren't in the code at all, but you have to do them to keep peace. My boxes of "Maryland staples" for fixing NM cable in MD comes to mind.

I have lived and worked my entire career in Maryland and don't know what these are.

Please tell Marc, the suspense is too much.

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am from NY, and I thought I knew what a Maryland Staple was/is...Maryland Crabcakes. :wink:

[peter d]

Please tell Marc, the suspense is too much.

Only the mention of some particular box of staples could put an electrician in suspense. :D :D

[kkwong]

I do agree with that. I love it when guys start telling you "I did this and that and the other" and you just look at it and say "why?" Though it does make it easier to inspect.

I like it too, especially when its something stupid and they do it anyways and they admit later that it was stupid.

Thanks to everyone that stood up for the inspectors, even if it was just the other inspectors. :)

Someone has to do it...if we didn't like each other, no one would like us ;) :grin: :grin:

Edit for spelling

[cowboyjwc]

if we didn't like each other, no one would like us ;) :grin: :grin:

Edit for spelling

I'm a nice guy, really. If I had any friends you could ask them:grin: :D

[kkwong]

I'm a nice guy, really. If I had any friends you could ask them:grin: :D

Friends? What's this friend thing I keep hearing about?:D :D