How would you treat the following.... [Archive]

c2500

04-14-2008, 07:22 PM

A room over a garage. Within the room is a full bathroom. The main room surrounds the bathroom (imagine a U with the bath in the center of the U). There is an open kitchenette. With a sink and under cabinet fridge. There are no permanant cooking devices. There is a closet.

You also know the intent of the room is a backup guest area as well as den, but mainly den.

Is it a dwelling unit?

I had the conversation today with the inspector, and he felt that while it is kinda gray, I should treat it as a dwelling with a kitchen in the room. So I will have two circuits in the kitchen area with ground faults on arc fault breakers Plus all the rest of the room will be on another arc fault or two depending on the load. (have to discuss that with the homewoner.)

Thoughts?

c2500

stickboy1375

04-14-2008, 07:27 PM

The garage is attached? 2ndly the kitchen is not a kitchen, 3rd, its either a bedroom or its not... which is it?

mdshunk

04-14-2008, 07:33 PM

I can really see that one going either way. Sure seems like it might meet the definition of a dwelling unit. A permanent provision for cooking could just as easily be the receptacle where you could plug in a microwave. It doesn't say that the means of cooking need be permant, only the provisions for such means.

stickboy1375

04-14-2008, 07:40 PM

Did the permit say dwelling unit? if not, then its not a dwelling unit, if it did then it is...

Here are the definitions.

-Dwelling, one-family: A detached building used exclusively for occupancy by one (1) family.

-Dwelling, two-family: A detached building or pair of attached buildings used exclusively for occupancy by two (2) families living independently of each other.

-Dwelling, multifamily: A building or portion thereof containing three (3) or more dwelling units.

-Dwelling unit: One (1) or more rooms with private bath and kitchen facilities comprising an independent self-contained dwelling unit.

charlie

04-14-2008, 07:52 PM

Along with the definitions, we may as well include the one for kitchen.
Kitchen. An area with a sink and permanent facilities for food preparation and cooking.
In other words, you don't have a kitchen. :grin:

stickboy1375

04-14-2008, 07:56 PM

I'm also surprised the inspector thought it was gray, I would think most areas just dont give out permits for accessory dwelling units.:confused:

charlie b

04-14-2008, 08:01 PM

I would call this a bedroom, with a bathroom, and treat it accordingly. It is not a kitchen, because it lacks permanent provisions for cooking. A receptacle that might supply a microwave is certainly a permanent provision. But it is a permanent provision for any plug and cord device, not a provision for cooking.

LarryFine

04-14-2008, 08:20 PM

A permanent provision for cooking could just as easily be the receptacle where you could plug in a microwave. It doesn't say that the means of cooking need be permant, only the provisions for such means. But, a receptacle outlet that is provided for a cooking provision is a provision that is provided for the receptacle, not a provision that is provided for cooking. Sure, a receptacle can be a provided for a cooking provision, but the appliance is the provision, not the outlet provided for it. (:D)

I concur with the other's, Marc, in case you couldn't tell. Now, an appliance receptacle that was stab-wired with aluminum conductors could indeed get hot enough to cook on. :rolleyes: Bottom line, it's a bedroom (partly because of the closet). Got two egress paths?

mdshunk

04-14-2008, 08:22 PM

But, a receptacle outlet that is provided for a cooking provision is a provision that is provided for the receptacle, not a provision that is provided for cooking. Sure, a receptacle can be a provided for a cooking provision, but the appliance is the provision, not the outlet provided for it. (:D)

I concur with the other's, Marc, in case you couldn't tell. Now, an appliance receptacle that was stab-wired with aluminum conductors could indeed get hot enough to cook on. :rolleyes: Bottom line, it's a bedroom (partly because of the closet). Got two egress paths?
I have no idea what you said, but I'm perfectly willing to be wrong. :)

c2500

04-14-2008, 08:33 PM

Bottom line, it's a bedroom (partly because of the closet). Got two egress paths?

One way in via the stairs. A few of the windows could meet egress, but I have not measured them to make sure. If not, I guess it goes back to a room with a bath and a spare sink.

I have never run into this, but will the GFI's work ok on an arc fault?

c2500

jerm

04-14-2008, 08:33 PM

But, a receptacle outlet that is provided for a cooking provision is a provision that is provided for the receptacle, not a provision that is provided for cooking. Sure, a receptacle can be a provided for a cooking provision, but the appliance is the provision, not the outlet provided for it.
I'm going to go have a [strong] drink, come back, take a few deep breaths, and try to read that again.

Maybe Larry will edit it out by then and I won't have to worry about it. :D

I have never run into this, but will the GFI's work ok on an arc fault?
The AFCI's will work as well as they normally do, even with a GFI on there. Whatever that means.

mdshunk

04-14-2008, 08:35 PM

I have never run into this, but will the GFI's work ok on an arc fault?
You betcha. If you happen to have a CH panel there, they make a combination GFCI/AFCI breaker if you feel like using it.

LarryFine

04-14-2008, 08:36 PM

I have no idea what you said, but I'm perfectly willing to be wrong. :) Whew! I'm so glad you didn't ask me. :grin:

Hey, I just noticed where you live! How's the family?

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i169/wordriot/48ef3b38.jpg

Here are a couplke of new avatars for you:

http://www.oldfashionedfamilies.com/forums/images/smilies/frakenstein.gif http://www.zombie-nation.net/forums/images/smilies/icon_frankenstein.gif

LarryFine

04-14-2008, 08:39 PM

I'm going to go have a [strong] drink, come back, take a few deep breaths, and try to read that again.

Maybe Larry will edit it out by then and I won't have to worry about it. :D
Not a chance! I'd have to understand it to do that. :wink:

c2500

04-14-2008, 08:45 PM

[QUOTE=jerm
The AFCI's will work as well as they normally do, even with a GFI on there. Whatever that means.[/QUOTE]

Let me see if I can be a bit clearer....Since there is a sink, and it will have receptacles on each side, I will have GFCI receptacles. I have never used a GFCI on an AFCI circuit. I am simply asking if there have been any compatibility issues. (perhaps my leaving the C out of GFI led to the confusion. In my neck of the woods, the C is typically ommited)

c2500

mdshunk

04-14-2008, 08:46 PM

You will have absolutely no problems. Worst case, on a ground fault, you may have to reset the receptacle and the breaker.

c2500

04-14-2008, 08:47 PM

You betcha. If you happen to have a CH panel there, they make a combination GFCI/AFCI breaker if you feel like using it.

Bummer,

I wanted to use CH, but the HO got a deal (Friends with the supply house owner) on Siemens.

But I am glad to know CH has them. (my favorite panel for whatever it is worth)

c2500

mdshunk

04-14-2008, 08:51 PM

Bummer,

I wanted to use CH, but the HO got a deal (Friends with the supply house owner) on Siemens.

But I am glad to know CH has them. (my favorite panel for whatever it is worth)

c2500
I'm always baffled when people want to supply the panel. They think that's the expensive part or something, and if they save on that part they'll really keep the costs down. A drop in the bucket, normally.

jerm

04-14-2008, 08:52 PM

You will have absolutely no problems.

Sounds like a fortune cookie. ;)

What I meant to say was, that, a GFI on an AFCI will work, to the extent the AFCI works, which we know can be a little spotty. From what I've read on the AFCI technology, it's still v1.0 and has had some, shall we say, issues.

c2500

04-14-2008, 09:51 PM

What I meant to say was, that, a GFI on an AFCI will work, to the extent the AFCI works, which we know can be a little spotty. From what I've read on the AFCI technology, it's still v1.0 and has had some, shall we say, issues.

Gotcha...thought you might have been making fun of my southern drawl.:grin:

GUNNING

04-15-2008, 03:24 PM

There is a GFCI/AFCI Seimans Breaker available.
Here, whatever the monikered prints say the rooms function is supposed to be is how its wired.
I agree no permanent kitchen cooking facilities, and it sounds like a den not a bedroom.
The bathroom, why not a gfci? By the sink, why not a GFCI? They are gong to have maybe a coffee pot a microwave maybe a toaster? Wire for the loads.

c2500

04-15-2008, 06:36 PM

The problem solved itself today. :grin: The HO has decided against the closet. Therefore it is a bonus room/den with a kitchenette(sink and undercountertop fridge). I will go ahead and put two circuits for the countertops with GFCI's. Obviously the bath will get GFCI'd. The rest of the room will get a 20 amp circuit also.

c2500

stickboy1375

04-15-2008, 09:30 PM