Wages

[sparkyjpb]

I realize that everyone is spread out geographicly, but what kind of wages are people paying there employees. I've been in business almost 5 years and only have 1 guy right now. I'm thinking of hiring this summer, at least part time. I know what I can afford, but I just need some input to be fair and to also not hurt myself by starting too high.
Any levels of experience would help.

[BryanMD]

You need to be a LOT more specific about the nature of your work and benefits and hours and location. Wage rates will vary Resi new construction thru Industrial service.

The less work hours you have to offer the more per hour it will cost you per hour.
(for someone competent)

[sparkyjpb]

Have to make this quick-I'm out the door.
Residential and light commercial service work-swimming pools, services, fixtures/ballast repairs, service calls, anything other than wiring new construction-res and comm
S/E Michigan

[Rewire]

I realize that everyone is spread out geographicly, but what kind of wages are people paying there employees. I've been in business almost 5 years and only have 1 guy right now. I'm thinking of hiring this summer, at least part time. I know what I can afford, but I just need some input to be fair and to also not hurt myself by starting too high.
Any levels of experience would help.
Start at minimum wage with no benifits and work from their.Loose your employee mentality and gain an employer mentality.You want employees at the lowest possible cost,raises and bennies are how you retain the best employees.When looking for employees do not advertise what your are paying just put pay based on expierience.Find out what the pay is for your market.Always offer less than you are willing to pay and less than what they will request on the application.

[crossman]

Hmmm, I don't know if it is okay to talk about wages on this forum or not. But, I'll throw some stuff out there. Moderators, moderate if need be. I looked for the rules but maybe I didn't look hard enough.

And, I guess a fair wage will be dependent on what perspective a person is looking from.

A fair and deserved wage for a compotent JW:

Northeast = $40/hour + medical and retirement
West Coast and Midwest = $35/hour + medical and retirement
South = $28/hour + medical and retirement

A green apprentice should start at 40% to 50% of these wages

IMHO

[DAWGS]

If you are hiring licensed journeyman you should be paying comparison to union scale. Go to the IBEW website, and to the local thats near you and check the job board. It will have the scale on their.

[Buck Parrish]

In the south and if you are a small company. 10-18 depending on expierience.

[bikeindy]

If you are hiring licensed journeyman you should be paying comparison to union scale. Go to the IBEW website, and to the local thats near you and check the job board. It will have the scale on their.


How do you figure a merit shop should look at the Union scale to base wages?

[nyerinfl]

A fair and deserved wage for a compotent JW:

Northeast = $40/hour + medical and retirement
West Coast and Midwest = $35/hour + medical and retirement
South = $28/hour + medical and retirement


I wish I was working for you when I was an employee. Unless your on the union scale you would have to be seriously producing to get that kind of cash. JMO.

[jerm]

How do you figure a merit shop should look at the Union scale to base wages?
I agree....

[jerm]

Northeast = $40/hour + medical and retirement
West Coast and Midwest = $35/hour + medical and retirement
South = $28/hour + medical and retirement


Maybe in Texas, but we're not getting that in OK. I think it probably varies from market to market, not just region to region. (maybe not even state to state... Minuteman, what's an OKC JM getting these days?)

[DAWGS]

How do you figure a merit shop should look at the Union scale to base wages?

I run a merit shop, and that is exactly how I base my pay scale. My journeyman actually all receiveda $1.50 raise this last week to get to the scale. Thats what keeps these guys from jumping my ship onto someone elses. I dont know about you, but I need to keep every good hand I have as we stay very busy.

[Minuteman]

Minuteman, what's an OKC JM getting these days?)The larger merit shops that do mostly commercial new construction, pay right at or just under Union scale. I'm told, that most small merit shops pay $18 -$25

But, just as everyone is already saying. Merit shops pay depends on the shop. It also stand to reason, the more a good hand makes, the better chance of keeping him.

[crossman]

Like I said, it is all a matter of perspecitve.

I often see ECs here on this site moaning about how other ECs are doing the work for too cheap. They want other ECs to raise their prices so all ECs can make a decent living. Nothing wrong with that. ECs deserve to make a nice living.

But the same thing goes for electricians. They could moan about other electricians working too cheap. Nothing wrong with an electrician moaning about the other electricians who work so darned cheap. Electricians deserve a nice living too.

[crossman]

RE: South = $28 + medical + retirement

Maybe in Texas, but we're not getting that in OK. I think it probably varies from market to market, not just region to region. (maybe not even state to state... Minuteman, what's an OKC JM getting these days?)

I didn't say they were getting that, I said they deserve that!:smile:

[DAWGS]

Don't get me wrong, my scale is for the licensed JW, not a mechanic. I reward the guys who actually have the license. Mechanics are lazy minded in my opinion. If they dont want to study and take the test to better themselves and the company I'm not going to reward them.

[izak]

in Arkansas, Journeyman BASE pay is around 16-17 dollars an hour (non union) Little Rock IBEW is paying approx 21 an hour plus about 6-7 an hour on health/welfare and pension
in fact ALL Three Locals in Arkansas are really in the same range

In certain places in Arkansas, the state lists the prevailing wage as an electrician at about 10 an hour.

Federal prevailing wage in Little Rock is around 29 including all bennies

[jerm]

RE: South = $28 + medical + retirement



I didn't say they were getting that, I said they deserve that!:smile:

LOL. :) Here's to keeping this a civil discussion!

[bikeindy]

RE: South = $28 + medical + retirement



I didn't say they were getting that, I said they deserve that!:smile:

People don't deserve anything, that is what one of the problems we have in this country is these day (according to me). You earn it or don't get it. If I have a guy who has less knowledge than a union guy but he makes me lots of money because what he does for me doesn't take a lot of technical skill I may be paying him more than his union counter part. Hows that grab you? I am not going to find out what others are doing I am not involved in their business I am involved in mine.

[wireman71]

Lets not talk prevailing wage here.. In Eastern WA a commercial journeyman being paid top wages can make about $25 an hour. Average is $22. I'm talking money on the check.

[jayrad1122]

As I'm reading my pay should be higher than the 10.50 i make now. I work around 25 hours a week on co-op with a company thats about 80% residential and commercial service work. I do focus on the work to be performed but i go slower than another employee. I tend to make sure everything looks nice and is correct. Very interesting observation.

EDIT: I'm still in high school 18 years old

[emahler]

i think you should march into the bosses office tomorrow and demand a raise...

[jerm]

i think you should march into the bosses office tomorrow and demand a raise...
he's kidding. :D

[bikeindy]

As I'm reading my pay should be higher than the 10.50 i make now. I work around 25 hours a week on co-op with a company thats about 80% residential and commercial service work. I do focus on the work to be performed but i go slower than another employee. I tend to make sure everything looks nice and is correct. Very interesting observation.

EDIT: I'm still in high school 18 years old

I think you are doin' pretty good. You could do a lot worse at your age. if you live at home I would suggest you start a ROTH IRA tomarrow. If you like the work you are doing keep at it and sped will come with the neatness you have and you can earn a good living.

[bikeindy]

I run a merit shop, and that is exactly how I base my pay scale. My journeyman actually all receiveda $1.50 raise this last week to get to the scale. Thats what keeps these guys from jumping my ship onto someone elses. I dont know about you, but I need to keep every good hand I have as we stay very busy.


If they want to jump ship let them, loyalty works two ways. Ever have a boss who financed a car for you? I know one who did. The grass might look greener somewhere else but it might only be because of the crap underneath it.

[jayrad1122]

i also think speed will come with time. I started not an IRA but with a CD that i will continually grow. IRA is a good idea but my fuel bill is steadily climbing (diesel 4x4).

[jayrad1122]

i think you should march into the bosses office tomorrow and demand a raise...

..LMAO that'll turn out well

[DAWGS]

[QUOTE=bikeindy]If they want to jump ship let them, loyalty works two ways. Ever have a boss who financed a car for you? I know one who did. The grass might look greener somewhere else but it might only be because of the crap underneath it.[/QUOTE

If I let all the good ones jump ship what will I have then? My paycheck is also dependent on them, its a 2-way street. I dont know about Indiana, but in the south if you get good hands you better keep them. Lots of work, and few good JW's that will show to work everyday.

[satcom]

i also think speed will come with time. I started not an IRA but with a CD that i will continually grow. IRA is a good idea but my fuel bill is steadily climbing (diesel 4x4).

Your in Northeast Pa, your wage is good for that area, as for speed the only speed, they know up there is at the raceway, all work is at one speed slow and slower.

[DAWGS]

Your in Northeast Pa, your wage is good for that area, as for speed the only speed, they know up there is at the raceway, all work is at one speed slow and slower.

Ain't that 2 speeds?:D

[jrannis]

If you are hiring licensed journeyman you should be paying comparison to union scale. Go to the IBEW website, and to the local thats near you and check the job board. It will have the scale on their.
Remember that those wages are professionally negotiated by both NECA (the contractors) and the IBEW (the electricians). Many hundreds of factors are considered and many millions of dollars are at stake with every increase or decrease in wages. These are serious numbers. They reflect factors such as local economy, work forecasts, housing markets, interest rates and inflation.
I can see trying to operate just below these wages to make an extra buck. Its just not for me.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Like I said, it is all a matter of perspecitve.

I often see ECs here on this site moaning about how other ECs are doing the work for too cheap. They want other ECs to raise their prices so all ECs can make a decent living. Nothing wrong with that. ECs deserve to make a nice living.

But the same thing goes for electricians. They could moan about other electricians working too cheap. Nothing wrong with an electrician moaning about the other electricians who work so darned cheap. Electricians deserve a nice living too.

Not according to some ECs. The goals of an hourly worker are completely the opposite of the goals of someone who is in the business of selling an hourly worker's labor, skill and time.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

If they want to jump ship let them, loyalty works two ways. Ever have a boss who financed a car for you? I know one who did. The grass might look greener somewhere else but it might only be because of the crap underneath it.

If I was ever in a position where I needed my boss to finance anything for me, that would be my que to jump ship.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

[QUOTE=bikeindy]If they want to jump ship let them, loyalty works two ways. Ever have a boss who financed a car for you? I know one who did. The grass might look greener somewhere else but it might only be because of the crap underneath it.[/QUOTE

If I let all the good ones jump ship what will I have then? My paycheck is also dependent on them, its a 2-way street. I dont know about Indiana, but in the south if you get good hands you better keep them. Lots of work, and few good JW's that will show to work everyday.

I hear this a lot about Southern workers. Christ, I haven't taken a day off in 15 years.

[romexking]

Not according to some ECs. The goals of an hourly worker are completely the opposite of the goals of someone who is in the business of selling an hourly worker's labor, skill and time.

That is a very "us against them" mentality. Can it not be the goal of an employee to help a company suceed and meet it's profit goal? Of course our profit is built with the hands of our employees, but the goals don't have to be opposites. What is the first goal of the company you work for? Have you asked? During the interview process I ask each prospect what their goals are. It very well might be to make more $$, or it might be to be home at 4 pm everyday, or to move into a management position. I ask this because in order for my company to be sucessful, my employees must be sucessful in their own goals. When they suceed, it makes my chances of suceeding much greater. We review our financial statement with our employees, so they know where we stand relative to our profit goals. They also know that when the company makes more, they will make more. That sounds like a common goal to me.

[romexking]

I run a merit shop, and that is exactly how I base my pay scale. My journeyman actually all receiveda $1.50 raise this last week to get to the scale. Thats what keeps these guys from jumping my ship onto someone elses. I dont know about you, but I need to keep every good hand I have as we stay very busy.

The money you just spent giving out raises is only a short term solution. What will happen when another contractor will pay them a little more? You will be giving out more raises. That could be a never ending cycle. As previously stated, money may be the only motivator for some employees, but not everyone wants just more money. You must ask them what are their goals in life, and then help them achieve them if you can. Have them write their top 3 goals in life down on paper, and help them devise a way to reach those goals. Perhaps the young guy wants to by a house, instead of giving a raise in his check, have him open a direct deposit account and divert that raise into that account. He'll be less likely to use it for frivolous stuff, and it will start building quickly. Do you think your interest in helping him buy a house will instill loyalty? Probably more that just a $1.50 in his check that he will use to buy beer and fast food.

Ask them, then help them.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

That is a very "us against them" mentality. Can it not be the goal of an employee to help a company suceed and meet it's profit goal?

It's not us against them, any more than the relationship between a customer and contractor is us against them.

Of course our profit is built with the hands of our employees, but the goals don't have to be opposites. What is the first goal of the company you work for? Have you asked?

The goal is the same goal of every employee who has worked for any company.


During the interview process I ask each prospect what their goals are. It very well might be to make more $$, or it might be to be home at 4 pm everyday, or to move into a management position. I ask this because in order for my company to be sucessful, my employees must be sucessful in their own goals. When they suceed, it makes my chances of suceeding much greater. We review our financial statement with our employees, so they know where we stand relative to our profit goals. They also know that when the company makes more, they will make more. That sounds like a common goal to me.

Unless the company and the employee share a joint checking account, the goal is not common.

[bikeindy]

If I was ever in a position where I needed my boss to finance anything for me, that would be my que to jump ship.


Really an employee who has but themselves in a sitation that they could only get a car from a buy here pay here place for 21% interest or more, who is well paid for their skill and motivation. Jumping ship over even $3 an hour won't change his inability to get that car for 0% interest. Thats assuming he could jump ship. Lots of electricians around here were thrown overboard.

You need to look beyond your own experiences to see the whole picture. Maybe for you it is all about the money.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

Really an employee who has but themselves in a sitation that they could only get a car from a buy here pay here place for 21% interest or more, who is well paid for their skill and motivation. Jumping ship over even $3 an hour won't change his inability to get that car for 0% interest. Thats assuming he could jump ship. Lots of electricians around here were thrown overboard.

For whatever reason the employee is in this situation, financing the employee's car through the boss drastically changes the employer/employee relationship. It puts the employee in a position where he is now beholden to the boss. The employee has no control over his own future, without having to also consider the transportation.

What you're doing is no different that what they used to call company stores. Where employees weren't paid in cash, but rather credit to shop at the company owned grocery, and live in the company provided housing. That lunacy was eradicated decades ago, and here you go not only re-promoting the idea, but also patting yourself on the back for you ingenuity.

Bravo, you just took the labor movement back 75 years. What's worse, you've actually convinced yourself, and are attempting to convince me that this is a better way. You don't know your history.


You need to look beyond your own experiences to see the whole picture. Maybe for you it is all about the money.

No, it's about self respect. Money is a big part of that. Not owing your boss anything at the end of the day is another.

[hardworkingstiff]

There is not a one size fits all paradigm.

Any attempt at uniformity will be met with resistance by someone.

[bikeindy]

For whatever reason the employee is in this situation, financing the employee's car through the boss drastically changes the employer/employee relationship. It puts the employee in a position where he is now beholden to the boss. The employee has no control over his own future, without having to also consider the transportation.

What you're doing is no different that what they used to call company stores. Where employees weren't paid in cash, but rather credit to shop at the company owned grocery, and live in the company provided housing. That lunacy was eradicated decades ago, and here you go not only re-promoting the idea, but also patting yourself on the back for you ingenuity.

Bravo, you just took the labor movement back 75 years. What's worse, you've actually convinced yourself, and are attempting to convince me that this is a better way. You don't know your history.



No, it's about self respect. Money is a big part of that. Not owing your boss anything at the end of the day is another.

You make me laugh. I once had a boss who would let us buy tools on his accounts and pay it back slowly over time with no interest I aquired a lot of tools that way. Getting a car that way is also a nice perk. How many people do you hear that say they wish they were paid more but the bennies are nice so they stay at a particular company. all these things go to what you are paid in the end. Yeah now we don't have company housing and company stores in the states we have section 8 and food stamps. Please so much has changed, right.

By the way at the end of the day you owe your boss a lot more than you will ever know.

[romexking]

It's not us against them, any more than the relationship between a customer and contractor is us against them.



The goal is the same goal of every employee who has worked for any company.



Unless the company and the employee share a joint checking account, the goal is not common.

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.

Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.

Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor? Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

[hardworkingstiff]

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.

Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.

Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor? Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

OUCH, but true.

[emahler]

romex....having traveled down this particular path with lawnguy, i'll take the liberty to answer for him:D

(in my best lawnguy voice)contractors don't do anything in particular....the work will be there whether you are or are not. you are simply the madam, and we are the workers. if you aren't here, someone else will take your place, and i'll just work for them...(end lawnguy voice)


so, as you see, he doesn't need you either...:D

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

You make me laugh. I once had a boss who would let us buy tools on his accounts and pay it back slowly over time with no interest I aquired a lot of tools that way.

I had no need to ask my boss to finance my tools. Financing (even at 0%) the basic necessities of plying your trade just shows how little you're paying. Or perhaps, you demand too large a compliment of tools. Exactly how many tools were you required to supply?


Getting a car that way is also a nice perk.

A nicer "perk" is having the money to finance your own car. The "perk" your referring to was simply using your good credit to save your employee from an almost usury interest rate. He must be some winner. I'm assuming that the vehicle IS titled to him, and it becomes his after the last payment, correct? (Why do I think I'm assuming too much?)

I just bought a new truck. 0% interest. But that's because I pay my bills, because I CAN pay my bills.


How many people do you hear that say they wish they were paid more but the bennies are nice so they stay at a particular company.

Christ, even I say that!


all these things go to what you are paid in the end. Yeah now we don't have company housing and company stores in the states we have section 8 and food stamps. Please so much has changed, right.

By the way at the end of the day you owe your boss a lot more than you will ever know.

Sorry man, but you are incorrect. At the end of the day, I own nothing to my boss, my shop, and could quite possibly be working for someone else tomorrow at 7am.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I don't have an adversarial relationship with my customers as most of your posts would indicate is your relationship with all employer is.

My relationship is not adversarial, it's simply black and white. In fact, my relationship is easier on both parties. There's no wiggle room. Everyone knows the boundaries and where the lines are drawn. I work x hours, you pay x hours. I supply these tools, you supply everything else. This is the hourly rate of pay and benefits, period.

Either the employer and employee meet their end of the bargian or the relationship is over. There are no sudden changes in the rules. No "from now on, I'm holding back 2 weeks pay instead of one or, from now on, employees are to provide their own power tools, or, from now on, employees are to show up 1/2 hour early and work for free because I don't think I should have to pay for unproductive shop time despite the fact that it is necessary to run my business..."

The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up because it's "his" business.

When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. Nobody's out there contracting or working for a contractor for the fun of it. Neither you nor your employees are an an altruistic crusade to just go out every day and do good electrical work for the glory of it. The contractor's goal is to sell his services for as much as possible and keep expenses as little as possible. And an employees goal is to work for the highest possible wage. Ever have an employee ask for a reduction? I didn't think so.


are you saying that everyone has the same goals in life? What is your MAIN goal in life? It's not always about money for everyone.


Of course not. But nobodys goal is to work for less. Nobodys goal is to starve to death.


Your one dimensional view on all employee/employer matter really does a disservice to your union cause.


Really? I don't think promoting fair compensation for employees and empowering them to seek a position where they do not have to beg for a reasonable quality of life is a one dimensional view. I know it's not the view that some employers like. And I know that for some, any point of view that doesn't put the companys profits before anything else is frowned upon.

In basic terms, what you're saying is "agree with me or we're all doomed to failure." That's just not true. If you fail, another will take your place. That doesn't mean I wish to see you fail, but your success should not depend on manipulation.


Keep this in mind...I've been an employee, and now as a contractor I can say that I don't need people with your attitude and mind set. I can make money without any employees, but can you get a paycheck without a contractor?

With or without sidework, I can get a paycheck without a contractor. If every contractor packed it in tomorrow there would still be electrical work. You didn't invent it. You don't have a patent on it.

What has occured over the years is the sheer quantity of contractors has risen to such a degree that you're no longer competing with each other on management skills, you're forcing your employees to compete against other employees in a race to the bottom.


Oh yeah, non union side work. By the way, what benefits do you pay your side work helpers? Do you contribute to their H&W or pension? If not, what makes you any different than the many contractors on this site that you bash except that you probably don't pay employment taxes or workers comp?

I do not hire employees, so that argument is moot.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

romex....having traveled down this particular path with lawnguy, i'll take the liberty to answer for him:D

(in my best lawnguy voice)contractors don't do anything in particular....the work will be there whether you are or are not. you are simply the madam, and we are the workers. if you aren't here, someone else will take your place, and i'll just work for them...(end lawnguy voice)


so, as you see, he doesn't need you either...:D

You tell me what happens when a new shopping center goes up in town. Another pizza place, another stationary store, another pet shop, another dry cleaner, another bank branch... and in the end not a single employee in that or any other local shopping center gets a raise. What happens is another group of small business owners peels away at the existing market share, forcing the existing business's to cut their hours or expenses or inventory, and another reason is born for every employer to tell each employee that in the face of this new threat, there'll be no wage increases this year, either.

Can anyone here explain why so many electricians these days are opening shops, even small 1-2 man shops? My theory is the reason is obvious - contractors have driven their employees to go it alone because the wages they're paying are not enough for the effort their employees have to make and are driving them to become competitors, whether they want to or not.

Back when I turned out (of High School) an electrician (working for a contractor) did very well, union or nonunion. Today, some 2 decades plus later, the wage paid (nonunion) to electricians here is STILL THE SAME despite the increase in housing costs 600%, utility costs 100%, taxes 200%.

[hardworkingstiff]

Back when I turned out (of High School) an electrician (working for a contractor) did very well, union or nonunion. Today, some 2 decades plus later, the wage paid (nonunion) to electricians here is STILL THE SAME despite the increase in housing costs 600%, utility costs 100%, taxes 200%.

Very true, but it is not isolated to electrical work.

[bikeindy]

I had no need to ask my boss to finance my tools. Financing (even at 0%) the basic necessities of plying your trade just shows how little you're paying. Or perhaps, you demand too large a compliment of tools. Exactly how many tools were you required to supply?

I only needed to supply my hand tools and for most guys that was enough. I had a want for more than just what was needed. There are a lot of nice tools out there and sometimes forking out $500 + for a tool is not that easy but if you can get it with a little out of your check each week it is nice.

Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence.

I don't even have the title if you are wondering. Sometimes people go through toug times in life make bad choices get devorced I don't see how helping them is a bad thing.


Sorry man, but you are incorrect. At the end of the day, I own nothing to my boss, my shop, and could quite possibly be working for someone else tomorrow at 7am

Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss. At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace.

[DAWGS]

The money you just spent giving out raises is only a short term solution. What will happen when another contractor will pay them a little more? You will be giving out more raises. That could be a never ending cycle. As previously stated, money may be the only motivator for some employees, but not everyone wants just more money. You must ask them what are their goals in life, and then help them achieve them if you can. Have them write their top 3 goals in life down on paper, and help them devise a way to reach those goals. Perhaps the young guy wants to by a house, instead of giving a raise in his check, have him open a direct deposit account and divert that raise into that account. He'll be less likely to use it for frivolous stuff, and it will start building quickly. Do you think your interest in helping him buy a house will instill loyalty? Probably more that just a $1.50 in his check that he will use to buy beer and fast food.

Ask them, then help them.

Good for them if they can get more. My modow is make it so they can't afford to leave. I don't care what their goals are, I'm their employeer not their father its not my place to tell them how to handle their money. If they choose to buy beer and fast food with their raise thats fine, I know they will show up the next morning at my job sites.

[realolman]

Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence


I think there's much more than some of what LG Sparky's saying that makes sense. I think very much, if not all of it, makes sense.



Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss. At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace

Exactly what is it that is owed?

I think I get the short end of the stick every day I go to work. The only thing that keeps me going back is the lousy job market, and some very few benefits I have accrued over very many years of getting the short end. They blackmail you every day with the loss of your job unless you accept the short end of every encounter, every day. And I guess you're supposed to smile and thank them for it..:mad:

I'd be thrilled with some honesty.... I think Lawn Guy has just provided some to anyone who is truly open minded enough to hear it.
The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up .

I have taken the liberty of cutting off the end of LawnGuy Sparky's quote because I think the same mentality applies with corporate managers and it ain't "their business." can't fathom it... it doesn't register. They have been annointed by God somehow as a superior life form to you.

[bikeindy]

I think there's much more than some of what LG Sparky's saying that makes sense. I think very much, if not all of it, makes sense.




Exactly what is it that is owed?

I think I get the short end of the stick every day I go to work. The only thing that keeps me going back is the lousy job market, and some very few benefits I have accrued over very many years of getting the short end. They blackmail you every day with the loss of your job unless you accept the short end of every encounter, every day. And I guess you're supposed to smile and thank them for it..:mad:

I'd be thrilled with some honesty.

I used to work with guys like you and LGS. And always complaining and crying about how bad it is and if this or if that blah blah blah.... Stop your crying already and stand up and do something about it. You probably get the short end of the stick because that is all your worth. I have had three cry babies work for me, when I couldn't take their crying anymore I sent them to the unemployment office. I hear they don't mind baby sitting down there.

[bikeindy]

The issue I think that troubles you here is that you cannot fathom an employer/employee relationship where the employee has any real say-so , or the employer doesn't get to make any rule he can dream up because it's "his" business.

When push comes to shove, it all boils down to the almighty dollar. Nobody's out there contracting or working for a contractor for the fun of it. Neither you nor your employees are an an altruistic crusade to just go out every day and do good electrical work for the glory of it. The contractor's goal is to sell his services for as much as possible and keep expenses as little as possible. And an employees goal is to work for the highest possible wage. Ever have an employee ask for a reduction? I didn't think so.


Your mind is fried dude. I am in business because I have fun at it and we do go out and do good sorry great electrical work for the "glory" of it. We love what we do and thats why we do it. An employees goal should be to do the best job he can every day every hour he is at work, just because your best today may not be what your best is on average doesn't mean you shouldn't strive for perfection. Maybe you just hope for the day the Govenment takes over everything and makes it all fair and equal.

[bikeindy]

You tell me what happens when a new shopping center goes up in town. Another pizza place, another stationary store, another pet shop, another dry cleaner, another bank branch...

Apparently EC's GC's and all the others associated with it get Paid.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I only needed to supply my hand tools and for most guys that was enough. I had a want for more than just what was needed. There are a lot of nice tools out there and sometimes forking out $500 + for a tool is not that easy but if you can get it with a little out of your check each week it is nice.

I'm sure it is, but why do you think you felt the need to want to supply more? $500.00 for A tool? What were you supplying, hydraulic benders? Threading machines?


Look I am not going to argue with you because some of what you say makes sence.

I'm not arguing, this is a discussion. A debate at best.


I don't even have the title if you are wondering. Sometimes people go through toug times in life make bad choices get devorced I don't see how helping them is a bad thing.

Not a bad thing to help someone out in a particular circumstance. Classifying that help as a benefit worth more than any paycheck could provide is pushing it out of the realm of what it really is.


Good for you and I am sure your boss could handle things fine with out you, It might take some time to replace you but you would still owe your new boss what you owed your old boss.

Nothing more than a day's work for a days pay.


At the end of the day they have employed you and they don't have to. I am sure you are not too difficult to replace.

Everyone is replaceable. That doesn't make them worthless. And that doesn't mean they should wake up every day and just be thankful they have a job.

[bikeindy]

I'm sure it is, but why do you think you felt the need to want to supply more? $500.00 for A tool? What were you supplying, hydraulic benders? Threading machines?


Who said I was supplying it? I was buying tools for me. Did I use some of them to make me more effecient than others around me? Yep, and I was paid more because of it. The rest I used for myself. I still have most of them. Anything from cordless drills to hydraulic knockout kits to roto hammer drills and bits.

[realolman]

I used to work with guys like you and LGS. And always complaining and crying about how bad it is and if this or if that blah blah blah.... Stop your crying already and stand up and do something about it. You probably get the short end of the stick because that is all your worth. I have had three cry babies work for me, when I couldn't take their crying anymore I sent them to the unemployment office. I hear they don't mind baby sitting down there.
I'm no crybaby.. I know what I'm doing and do it well.

If you can't understand the message, always attack the messenger.

And anytime you have the chance to exercise a little leverage over some one... don't fail to take advantage of it.

[emahler]

I'm no crybaby.. I know what I'm doing and do it well.

If you can't understand the message, always attack the messenger.

And anytime you have the chance to exercise a little leverage over some one... don't fail to take advantage of it.

there are some great companies out there to work for...you are free to get hired by them...you appear to hate your current situation...make a change....

[khixxx]

I don't roll out of bed for anything less than $30/hr. I am a road tech. I guess your wages would be set by how bad you need someone and how bad someone needs you. best of luck.

[tmbrk]

There are unscrupulous employers out there who would like nothing better than to take advantage of their employees. I have worked for both the good and the bad. I moved around between employers until I felt comfortable where I was. And it wasn't necessarily the place that paid the highest. When I found that perfect place, I liked the atmosphere and the general feeling that we were doing great work. I also appreciated the perks that were offered. (Good benefits and stuff like taking us all on snowmobile trips in the winter, put us up in a nice place and would even offer to lend a sled to the guys that didn't have them.)

I liked the fact that if I worked harder than the next guy I would be rewarded for it. Nothing is worse for morale than to see the guy next to you slacking off everyday yet making the same wages and benefits as you.

I went out on my own because I wanted to push myself even further.

Not everyone thinks the same.

[emahler]

well said.....

[wireman71]

Sorry but it is about money as an employee. You can pretend it's not but it is. Plain and simple. Your employees work for you to make money.


Was supposd to quote something.. LOL! But it's true. All this BS by employers about how they don't have to pay as much because of something or another.. Do what works for you!

[romexking]

Good for them if they can get more. My modow is make it so they can't afford to leave. I don't care what their goals are, I'm their employeer not their father its not my place to tell them how to handle their money. If they choose to buy beer and fast food with their raise thats fine, I know they will show up the next morning at my job sites.


Well, I suppose that is one way to handle it.

[hardworkingstiff]

Sorry but it is about money as an employee. You can pretend it's not but it is. Plain and simple. Your employees work for you to make money.


It's about money for the employer too. There is only so much money in a job. The problems heat up when one side perceives they are not getting their fair share.

[iwire]

I am sure that if we just keep hitting this back and forth we will be able to fix all the problems with the employer / employee relationship. :rolleyes: :grin:

IMO this whole thread is pointless, peoples individual opinions are not going to be changed here.

It makes as much sense as arguing over ground up or down.

[brian john]

Best post so far Bob....

But of course I have to add.

Start at minimum wage with no benifits and work from their.Loose your employee mentality and gain an employer mentality.You want employees at the lowest possible cost,raises and bennies are how you retain the best employees.When looking for employees do not advertise what your are paying just put pay based on expierience.Find out what the pay is for your market.Always offer less than you are willing to pay and less than what they will request on the application.

As an employer I have to say...JEEZE....heck of a philosophy, The exact opposite approach I use.

[romexking]

Sorry but it is about money as an employee. You can pretend it's not but it is. Plain and simple. Your employees work for you to make money.


Was supposd to quote something.. LOL! But it's true. All this BS by employers about how they don't have to pay as much because of something or another.. Do what works for you!

If it is only about money, why are you an electrician? Wouldn't a different career be more economically rewarding? I suppose you have two jobs because you like the money so much.

It is beyond my comprehension how you can honestly believe this. How can you impose you values onto everyone in an entire trade. At least my reasoning leaves open the option that for some people, money is the only concern. Your statement leaves no room for anyone to have any other reason for working at a particlular employer. So as long as an employer pays you the most, you will tolerate any humiliation that they might heap upon you? What if you had to use your car to transport conduit, would you stay because they pay more? What if you had to work in freezing cold or blistering heat ALL of the time. Would that play a part in choice of employers? What if instead you had the opportunity to work in a clean office environment that on Fridays brought strippers in for your pleasure, but they paid $.50 an hour less? Would you even consider it?

These are all rhetorical questions, I don't care what the answers are. I just wanted to make you thing about the validity of your statement.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I liked the fact that if I worked harder than the next guy I would be rewarded for it. Nothing is worse for morale than to see the guy next to you slacking off everyday yet making the same wages and benefits as you.

That's one way of looking at it. But if you examine the economics of contracting, there are few that can afford to keep any slacker on the payroll. I rather like the method where if you cannot produce to an acceptable standard, you hit the bricks, instead of utilizing substandard help at a lower rate. Would you go to a $50.00 doctor when the rest demand $100.00?


I went out on my own because I wanted to push myself even further.

Not everyone thinks the same.

[tmbrk]

That's one way of looking at it. But if you examine the economics of contracting, there are few that can afford to keep any slacker on the payroll. I rather like the method where if you cannot produce to an acceptable standard, you hit the bricks, instead of utilizing substandard help at a lower rate. Would you go to a $50.00 doctor when the rest demand $100.00?

If I was forced under contract to keep going to a substandard doctor because if I didn't all the other doctors would go on strike I guess I would have to.

I have worked union and non-union and I personally saw just how hard it was to get rid of a slacker.

[tmbrk]

I worked at one job where the foreman finally gave up trying to get rid of a slacker because everyone down at the hall started calling him ( the foreman) a "company man" and his "brothers" turned their backs on him. So yes the rest of us had to work side by side with him (the slacker) knowing he was making the same wages and benfits.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

If I was forced under contract to keep going to a substandard doctor because if I didn't all the other doctors would go on strike I guess I would have to.

I have worked union and non-union and I personally saw just how hard it was to get rid of a slacker.

I saw no difference in the difficulty of dismissing a slacker whether union or nonunion. Here's your layoff, have a nice day. No I don't want to discuss it.

[LawnGuyLandSparky]

I worked at one job where the foreman finally gave up trying to get rid of a slacker because everyone down at the hall started calling him ( the foreman) a "company man" and his "brothers" turned their backs on him. So yes the rest of us had to work side by side with him (the slacker) knowing he was making the same wages and benfits.

Well I wasn't there, but if you want to lay someone off and everyone from the hall (I assume you're referring to business agents) and all of the journeyman on the jobsite disagreed with the foreman's actions, and turned their backs in disgust, that the problem wasn't "slacking."

[tmbrk]

Well I wasn't there, but if you want to lay someone off and everyone from the hall (I assume you're referring to business agents) and all of the journeyman on the jobsite disagreed with the foreman's actions, and turned their backs in disgust, that the problem wasn't "slacking."

First of all you are correct..You weren't there.

Second, we that had to work this guy did not turn our backs on the foreman. We didn't want to work with that jerk anymore than the foreman wanted him undermining the jobsite. It was the politicians down at the hall that the guy went to complain about the unfair way in which he felt he was being treated.

I don't know what local you work for, but there are some very political ones out there. The system is flawed.

And if you think it's all about the money. Take a good look at your next issue of the IBEW journal. See those guys in suits shaking hands and smiling for the camera? What is their motivation? Your dues paying their $100,000+ salaries. Think their hands get dirty?

[bikeindy]

Just to clarify my position, my guys are well paid. and I don't know and don't care what union guys make. I know two union guys from church and we have never discussed salaries. My first post here was that I don't think basing your wages as an employer of a merit shop should have anything to do with union wages. I would expect that most union guys should have a great deal different job situation than that of a merit shop guy. Personally I wouldn't want to be down at the new stadium here in Indy day after day working (and I am assuming that it is a union job). And there is really nothing keeping a guy from going some place else if he wants to. When it comes down to it you work for a company because you like it and the pay. If the job is a hassle and the boss is a jerk I would want more pay to stick around. I started out on my own because that is what I wanted to do. I hope I haven't done too much damage to the labor movement by helping my guys with their problems.