800amp residential service

[elvis_931]

I am wiring a 17,000sq. ft. house. The power company wants an 800amp service, and I agree. The only problem is that I have never put in an 800amp service on a house. The block layers are laying for the basement wall tomorrow and that is where the service location will be. They want to know how big and where to make sleeves for the service. My question: what is the best way to put this in? Any layout ideas? One 800a meterbase and two 400A service disconnects feeding 4 subpanels?

[wireguru]

i saw one of these the other day on a 10,000 sq/ft house. it was a meter/main combo with 4x 200a disconnects. I dont remember what the pipes for the poco were though

[ItsHot]

Wow ,that is a castle! Is it going to have an elevator?:smile:

[brantmacga]

I am wiring a 17,000sq. ft. house. The power company wants an 800amp service, and I agree.
What does your load calc say? I've seen less house with more service.


The only problem is that I have never put in an 800amp service on a house. The block layers are laying for the basement wall tomorrow and that is where the service location will be. They want to know how big and where to make sleeves for the service. My question: what is the best way to put this in? Any layout ideas? One 800a meterbase and two 400A service disconnects feeding 4 subpanels?

4x 200A disco's should be much cheaper than two 400's. Or go w/ wireguru's suggestion of the meter/main combo. It'll be massive and it'll be expensive. I ordered a 400A combo once w/ two 200A disconnects; it was almost the size of my truck hood, weighed at least 100lbs, and was $500. I would check w/ the poco before doing that though because they may want you to use their transocket. different strokes for different folks. we have some poco's that require it at 600A 1ph and others require it at 800A 1ph.

[LarryFine]

This is something you should have worked out with the POCO field engineers long before now.

I can almost guarantee that an 800a service will be metered with CT's; the last 800a service I did was.

It was a trough and four 200a MB panels, with each panel's feeders bolted to the CTs' bars.

Everything was in the basement except for the meter itself, with the usual 1.25" EMT and #10's.

[elvis_931]

This is something you should have worked out with the POCO field engineers long before now.

Yes, it is. The thing is I am still bidding the job and the guy calls me and says the basement is going up and the block layers are wanting to know where, how many andhow big to make holes. I have not had a chance to get with poco yet. Just received drawings a few days ago.

[satcom]

Yes, it is. The thing is I am still bidding the job and the guy calls me and says the basement is going up and the block layers are wanting to know where, how many andhow big to make holes. I have not had a chance to get with poco yet. Just received drawings a few days ago.

We don't move a pencil without a signed contract from the GC we don't contact the poco engineering until we have the job deposit in the bank. and cleared.

[emahler]

What does your load calc say? I've seen less house with more service.



4x 200A disco's should be much cheaper than two 400's. Or go w/ wireguru's suggestion of the meter/main combo. It'll be massive and it'll be expensive. I ordered a 400A combo once w/ two 200A disconnects; it was almost the size of my truck hood, weighed at least 100lbs, and was $500. I would check w/ the poco before doing that though because they may want you to use their transocket. different strokes for different folks. we have some poco's that require it at 600A 1ph and others require it at 800A 1ph.

brant, brant, brant....$500 is expensive? it's a 17,000 sq foot house.....put it in context....

[elvis_931]

We don't move a pencil without a signed contract from the GC we don't contact the poco engineering until we have the job deposit in the bank. and cleared.

What?:confused: How can you even get to the point where you even have a contract to sign if you " don't move a pencil without a signed contract"? What kind of GC is going to give you a deposit on a job you have'nt even put a pencil to yet? You at least have to figure enough to get a number for the "deposit". There is so much wrong with the statements in your post. Arrogance :smile:

[brantmacga]

brant, brant, brant....$500 is expensive? it's a 17,000 sq foot house.....put it in context....

well that's compared to what you could do it for w/ two 200A disconnects. i'm just sayin'. btw, i knew someone was gonna call me on that. :D

[enosez]

let them lay the block and core drill it later, adding the price into your quote.

[480sparky]

Sounds like the GC is not doing his job, just using his phone to call people to 'get things done'. A GCs job is more than getting people on-sire to do work, it is also performing something that is called 'co-ordination'.

[elvis_931]

The homeowner is doing all of the contracting himself. He is not using a GC.

[wireguru]

1: homeowner self contracting
2: 17000 SQUARE FOOT HOUSE
3: the foundation isnt even in an there are ALREADY coordination problems and typical HO "I need you over here today to get this done" type stuff
4: Unless the following are true then RUN!
a: this homeowner has successfully built homes of this caliber before
b: you REALLY need this job
c: financially, you can absorb delays and other problems

[George Stolz]

You need a load calc for this house.

You need to get the POCO involved once you know the load calc for this house, and how much more you want for future expansion.

You need to emphasize with the HO that you need more time to make sure this gets done right the first time, do-overs are time-consuming, frustrating and expensive when brickies/electricians are involved. Try to get the brickies started on the other side of the house.

Good luck with this, these sound like the kind of headaches that keep me firmly resolved to work for somebody else. :D

[elvis_931]

The situation is not as bad as it sounds. The HO is a seasoned VERY succesfull developer. He was not pushing me to do something, he was trying to get info about the service so that he could make provisions in the block. It turns out that it is not block, but one of those concrete and foam poured walls. I am glad he asked me about this because it will be easier to do the service if the wall is sleeved and I do not have to drill.

[elvis_931]

BTW. Who needs a 17,000sq. ft. house anyway!:D

[George Stolz]

The situation is not as bad as it sounds. The HO is a seasoned VERY succesfull developer.
That's a relief. :D

He was not pushing me to do something, he was trying to get info about the service so that he could make provisions in the block.
Then in this little tug of war, you need to push back to get the info you need to provide him with an accurate answer. ;)

It turns out that it is not block, but one of those concrete and foam poured walls. I am glad he asked me about this because it will be easier to do the service if the wall is sleeved and I do not have to drill.
I thought you said it was not as bad as it sounded? :D

Seriously, without a good one line, brought about by a load calc and a discussion with the POCO engineer, you're up a creek without a paddle. There are a lot of different configurations you could go with, and a customers ball park guess of "How about 800A" is not a good idea, IMO. Get him to either pay you for a load calc, or get someone to do it.

My 2¢. :)

[LarryFine]

What?:confused: How can you even get to the point where you even have a contract to sign if you " don't move a pencil without a signed contract"? What kind of GC is going to give you a deposit on a job you have'nt even put a pencil to yet? You at least have to figure enough to get a number for the "deposit". There is so much wrong with the statements in your post. Arrogance :smile: Play nice, boys! :smile:

He means don't get stuck doing engineering or legwork on a job you don't even know if you're getting.

Imagine how you'll feel after doing load calcs and hours of phone calls and meeting POCo guys on-site and planning locations and sizes of conduit/cable sleeves, and then someone else getting the job because they were able to use your homework and make a lower bid.

The GC, whether a good guy or not, will use any information he can gather to get as much work done for as little as possible.

I know I would.

[Tiger Electrical]

It's easy enough to have a pay-as-you-go structure for the homeowner/contractor. Set a fee for the load calc., a fee for the meeting with the POCO, a fee for the service and branch circuit design. This covers your expenses before you give the grand bid and lets you establish the relationship with the homeowner/contractor where they wouldn't consider using anyone else. If they hesitate to contract for these fees you know you have a shopper and can get out before you have much in it.

Dave

[ITO]

What everyone else said about the POCO is right on, they will need to be involved for a service that big, and depending on your area may require/need engineered drawings and a load calc before they will even permit and engineer your service.

Locally we have to have POCO engineered drawings for a service that size so we can install it how they want it, and get it inspected as per their plans. They wont even talk to you about it until you have, plans, load calcs, application for power, and a permit in hand. Then they review it for 30-days before they let you know if you can have a service that big, or they might ask for civil drawings and then think about it for another 30-days, before they send you the engineered drawings.

The best you can do for your client is make a deal to provide sleeves for his service while yall work out the details with your contract, the plans and the POCO.

[eds]

The last 800 amp service that we did, the POCO ct from the x-former itself and we came in the house with 3 3'' conduits to a I-line panel. Quite a bit of coordination between the City inspections department, the POCO, the builder, and ourselves, but we had 3 to 4 months to work it out

[Ken 6789]

I thought all power has to be shut off with one disconnect if the amperage is under a certain amount (1200 amps?)

[ultramegabob]

what could one family need with a 800 amp service, is this castle heated with baseboard heat???

[brantmacga]

what could one family need with a 800 amp service, is this castle heated with baseboard heat???

You just have to go w/ what the load calc says. I know a guy building a 10k sq. ft. house that was going to have a 800A service until they switched to gas appliances.

[jrannis]

The last 800 amp service that we did, the POCO ct from the x-former itself and we came in the house with 3 3'' conduits to a I-line panel. Quite a bit of coordination between the City inspections department, the POCO, the builder, and ourselves, but we had 3 to 4 months to work it out

Very good advice, usually over 600amps you will be CTed. I doubt the transformer will be shared so they might put them at the TX.
If they will fit, I try to only use 4" for my underground conduits.
You could terminate in a gutter or a nice 800 amp panel board.
Did you consider Cable and telephone conduits?

[ITO]

what could one family need with a 800 amp service, is this castle heated with baseboard heat???

I just did a house with a 1,600a service.

I blame the engineer, no matter how much fat I stuffed in the load calc, it just would not go over 800a but he INSISTED his was correct and that is what the owner got.

[ultramegabob]

I just did a house with a 1,600a service.

I blame the engineer, no matter how much fat I stuffed in the load calc, it just would not go over 800a but he INSISTED his was correct and that is what the owner got.

where do you get 1600 amp single phase switchgear, or do they allow 3 phase in residential there?

[Dennis Alwon]

where do you get 1600 amp single phase switchgear, or do they allow 3 phase in residential there?

4- 400 amp panels into a CT cabinet will work

[ultramegabob]

I wonder what the actual load on that house is at its highest during the year....

[LarryFine]

I just did a house with a 1,600a service.

I blame the engineer, no matter how much fat I stuffed in the load calc, it just would not go over 800a but he INSISTED his was correct and that is what the owner got.
I bet he forgot about only having to figure the larger of the heating and cooling loads, and calculated the total connected load instead.

[mdshunk]

I bet he forgot about only having to figure the larger of the heating and cooling loads, and calculated the total connected load instead.
Hard to say. I've known guys to brag about the 1,200 and 1,600 amp resi services they've built. Since this is a small area, I have to chuckle when I hear that, because I know of those jobs. They were farmsteads. That's sorta 'cheating' to call them a resi service. Two-hundred or 400 might go to the house, but the rest goes to the farming operation. Farms are a real "treat" to do a demand load calc for, so it's mostly an educated guess based on similar installations.

[aline]

I just did a house with a 1,600a service.

I blame the engineer, no matter how much fat I stuffed in the load calc, it just would not go over 800a but he INSISTED his was correct and that is what the owner got.
I did a service upgrade awhile back on a 2,500 square foot home. The home had a 125amp service and had all gas appliances except for the central air conditioning.

The homeowner's brother in-law was an engineer and told him that he needed at least a 400amp service and didn't know how it ever passed inspection even though every home in the neighborhood had the same 125amp service.

I did a load calc and showed him the results and how I came up with them. The 125amp service was adequate but he still didn't believe me and still wanted the upgrade done. I asked him how his brother in-law did the calculations to determine the home needed at least a 400 amp service but he said he didn't know. I assume he added up the amperage ratings of the breakers to come up with this.

The home was only about 5 years old so the service was in good shape. I was able to convince him that a 200amp service would be more than enough for the home and upgraded it to 200amps. I should have just sold him the 400amp service though. :)

[Dennis Alwon]

I should have just sold him the 400amp service though. :)

They say bigger is better but "I wouldn't know anything about thaaaat".:D

[jrannis]

I did a service upgrade awhile back on a 2,500 square foot home. The home had a 125amp service and had all gas appliances except for the central air conditioning.

The homeowner's brother in-law was an engineer and told him that he needed at least a 400amp service and didn't know how it ever passed inspection even though every home in the neighborhood had the same 125amp service.

I did a load calc and showed him the results and how I came up with them. The 125amp service was adequate but he still didn't believe me and still wanted the upgrade done. I asked him how his brother in-law did the calculations to determine the home needed at least a 400 amp service but he said he didn't know. I assume he added up the amperage ratings of the breakers to come up with this.

The home was only about 5 years old so the service was in good shape. I was able to convince him that a 200amp service would be more than enough for the home and upgraded it to 200amps. I should have just sold him the 400amp service though. :)

I dont a big hydroponic operation takes that much power!

[ITO]

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[jaylectricity]

Deleted..................................

Likely story.

[busman]

I didn't do the service, but I worked in a house a few years ago right on the Potomac River. I estimate the home at 15,000-20,000 sq. ft. It had a 1000 amp service. Five 200A GE panels right in a row. I never got around the outside to see the rest. It would have taken 5 minutes in a golf cart just to get there. The garage was larger than my whole house (no kidding).

Yes, it did have an elevator and the H.O. insisted I use it (I guess she didn't want my laborer feet on her stairs). Was like standing in a moving phone booth.

Mark

[360Youth]

Here is the house I am working on now. 600 amp service with CT, dsisconnect, and ATS. Now, I had the added benefit of being given the job before concrete and block walls. :roll:
But I went the CT route with two 3" pvc to disconnect and then 3" from disconnect to ATS.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/SurfSideEC/MilesCT.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd94/SurfSideEC/MilesATS.jpg

Not sure if it is any help, but I threw it in since it is a current discussion on a current project. I have used the meter combos with multiple 200 amp disconnecting means, so spacing configurations and equipment lugging will be a deciding factor in what you do, but for me, the less equipment the better.