AFCI on circuit extension

[M. D.]

This is related to the discussion on AFCI and service changes ,...

210 .12 says all branch circuits ,.. so what about extensions to existing non AFCI circuits .. The inspector in my town only requires protection when a new circuit is added and not when adding branch circuit wiring ...

I would like opinions and how is this enforced where you are ??

 

[barbeer]

If you install a new branch on a specified circuit it should comply with 210.12.

 

[iwire]

If you install a new branch on a specified circuit it should comply with 210.12.

I agree and feel it is required.

So instead of extending I would start fresh.

 

[76nemo]

How about removing a fused panel, you guys have to use AFCI's in the new loadcenters???

 

[M. D.]

How about removing a fused panel, you guys have to use AFCI's in the new loadcenters???

Not in Mass as far as I can tell,..

I had posted some where that when a rule becomes silly enforcement becomes whimsical ,. and this works to undermine the very purpose of the rule in the first place.. ..

I wish the rule could be read and understood and that feelings could be, by and large,.. ignored.

The problem is this. I just charged a customer 85.00 for two CAFCI breakers ,..now they find out,.. not sure how,.. that the inspector does not require them on circuit extensions..

It matters little what I say and have said ,.. bottom line ,..they think I screwed them.. this does little for my reputation ... I can only imagine if I had put in a sub panel to accomplish this ...

The NEC , IMO,.. is becoming silly

 

[76nemo]

Well, our local is talking about enforcing it here. I am a HUGE fan of safety and upgrades, but when you have a customer with a fused 12 circuit box, and they want a 20 circuit panel for future upgrades, and I need AFCI breakers for almost every circuit, plus the possibility of a GFCI breaker or two, and I give them THAT price, then I can see the HO hiring any ol' hack to do it for $100's cheaper, and who wins?

If I/we're just replacing fused OCPD with breakers, we're not adding anything new to any circuits besides the OCPD's themselves. This may turn ugly

Anyone else have to abide by this with their local???

 

[slick 50]

Well, our local is talking about enforcing it here. I am a HUGE fan of safety and upgrades, but when you have a customer with a fused 12 circuit box, and they want a 20 circuit panel for future upgrades, and I need AFCI breakers for almost every circuit, plus the possibility of a GFCI breaker or two, and I give them THAT price, then I can see the HO hiring any ol' hack to do it for $100's cheaper, and who wins?

If I/we're just replacing fused OCPD with breakers, we're not adding anything new to any circuits besides the OCPD's themselves. This may turn ugly

Anyone else have to abide by this with their local???

I don't think adding AFCI protection is required when only doing service work. the only inspection is on the service and not branch wiring. Now when you dig into any branch circuit, you could be made to use AFCI.

 

[M. D.]

All 120-volt, single phase, 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits supplying outlets installed in dwelling unit in family rooms, dining rooms, living rooms, parlors, libraries, dens, bedrooms, sun rooms, recreation rooms, closets, hallways, or similar rooms or areas shall be protected by a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter, combination type installed to provide protection of the branch circuit.

I'm not sure what you mean by service work??

In my case the wiring I added was for outlets in a bedroom , the circuit had branch circuit afci protection(not combination type).

I installed outlets from an existing branch circuit ,.. the work I did must meet the above requirement , and it does, regarless of what the inspector allows.

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

So if I need to go to a customers house to Add a closet light on an existing bedroom circuit installed before AFCI were required. I would need to replace the existing branch breaker with a new AFCI?

- JWC

 

[iwire]

So if I need to go to a customers house to Add a closet light on an existing bedroom circuit installed before AFCI were required. I would need to replace the existing branch breaker with a new AFCI?

- JWC

In my opinion yes, or run a new circuit with an AFCI.

 

[al hildenbrand]

So if I need to go to a customers house to Add a closet light on an existing bedroom circuit installed before AFCI were required. I would need to replace the existing branch breaker with a new AFCI?

I agree with Bob. Yes. The closet light is a new outlet (lighting outlet) installed in an area listed in the language of 2008 NEC 210.12(B) and, therefore must be supplied by a circuit protected by AFCI. There is no exception to omit the AFCI if the oulet is fed by an extension of the available wiring in the vacinity of the closet.

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

If I have a house with a fused panel in the basement, then I need to add a sub panel or upgrade the existing panel just to add a light in the closet of the bedroom. Why didn't the NEC just write that in on the opening sentence of 210.12(B) (All new and extentions to existing 120VAC Branch Circuits).

- JWC

 

[al hildenbrand]

If I have a house with a fused panel in the basement, then I need to add a sub panel or . . .

Yah. . .I know.

Now your local AHJ may have amendments to the NEC that modify 210.12, so that is always worth the check.

For me, in Minnesota, there are no modifications. If the outlet didn't exist before my work, then the outlet must be installed to the current NEC with AFCI on the branch circuit supplying it . . .

This is a real cost bump in some cases. A classic I see is the smoke detector that some jurisdictions in my area require in a hallway where the most beds are within xx feet. The smoke has to be line powered. Many times this is the only thing called out as part of the property changing hands, the only time it gets "noticed". The Fire Marshall will enforce it. In this case, the "new outlet" is not even discretionary, like the closet light, and the new homeowner gets the letter demanding the smoke 30 days after closing. And the dominoes tumble. . .

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

I think there is too much gray area, The code describes a Branch Circuit as conductors from the OCPD to the last outlet(s). In this case I am adding to the circuit not installing from the OCPD to the new lighting outlet. I would say the AFCI is not required when adding to existing circuits.

- JWC

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I think there is too much gray area, The code describes a Branch Circuit as conductors from the OCPD to the last outlet(s). In this case I am adding to the circuit not installing from the OCPD to the new lighting outlet. I would say the AFCI is not required when adding to existing circuits.

- JWC

Is the receptacle wired to a new portion of the branch circuit?

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . .the new lighting outlet. . .

In my area it is the Outlet that is the lynch pin.

If, in your area, you can install a new outlet under earlier versions of the NEC than the one that is in force for new construction, then you may be right. . .

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

The lighting receptacle would become a new extention to the existing branch circuit.

- JWC

 

[al hildenbrand]

JW,

Here, think of this. . .if you extend a branch circuit in the living room of a 1952 built house to add a new receptacle outlet, and the wiring method is old two wire NM without ground, does your AHJ allow you to use the NEC in effect in 1952?

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

Is that in the same old house that has old wiring, so when you do a service upgrade the existing cables are too short to reach the new breakers, then you add your juction box above the panel extend new branch circuit conductors from new AFCI breakers to jbox. Are the new AFCI breakers going to work on those existing circuits without grounding conductor?

I would end up installing a new branch circuit back to the AFCI in the panel, If it is a fused panel then the Homeower is forced to update the panel or add the sub panel.

The project that I am estimating the new lights in bedroom closets, already have grounding conductors on the existing branch circuits. (I'm not creating a violation).

- JWC

 

[al hildenbrand]

. . .if you extend a branch circuit in the living room of a 1952 built house to add a new receptacle outlet, and the wiring method is old two wire NM without ground, does your AHJ allow you to use the NEC in effect in 1952?

JW,

My point is that your AHJ requires you to add that new (hypothetical) living room outlet extended off of the existing two wire NM without ground to TODAY's NEC. . .you have to install a grounding type receptacle, not the 1952 ungrounded two wire receptacle.

If you are in an area that has adopted the 2008 NEC, unmodified, then that includes 210.12(B). If you are still under the 2005 NEC, 210.12(B) doesn't apply in the living room.

An AFCI breaker only looks at the neutral and the hot conductors, it ignores the EGC.

If you are installing the Combination Type AFCIs, and you have an existing multiwire branch circuit that you wish to protect, you're sunk, 'cause there are no 2-pole AFCIs made by the manufacturers at this time.