engineering

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

How many of you re-engineer projects? More and more I find engineers design projects with no or little regard for the NEC.Do you take responsibility for redesigning the job or do you wait for final and hit for upcharges.I normally advise as i go, and refuse to call for inspection until Nec is met.Am i wrong or right?

 

[whillis]

Depends on the situation. Are you talking residential/commercial or industrial?

I've done projects where the engineering did not meet code, but the calculations (IEEE or other method) showed that the install was safe. Other times, I've caught mistakes that were corrected once they were pointed out.

 

[ohmhead]

QUOTE= mcelweec How many of you re-engineer projects?

Well we do mostly large projects and my job is power distribution only on any job the power risers.And on most new construction plans they are not 100 % from the start we RFI the engineer to clear up issues like conduit size and wire size and breaker size or equipment not fitting into a space meaning not to the nec as the EC is responsible contact wise for any code issues. The electrical engineer never talks to the mechanical engineer or architect ever !! And they all size the electrical rooms too small . The only projects i enjoy doing are power plants its planned its electrical equip & conduit and trays and buss duck is routed & elevations given to and from for you on a print and anyone in your way moves and the engineer team is on site to assist with issues . In commercial the electrician is doing the planning & routing on his own . I have to tell a electrical engineer that this is not going to work sometimes and i get paid less!!! We are always up front never wait to the end of a project all our problems and code issues are docked 6 months pior to the start of the project .comments take care be SAFE!

 

[ptrip]

QUOTE= mcelweec How many of you re-engineer projects?

Well we do mostly large projects and my job is power distribution only on any job the power risers.And on most new construction plans they are not 100 % from the start we RFI the engineer to clear up issues like conduit size and wire size and breaker size or equipment not fitting into a space meaning not to the nec as the EC is responsible contact wise for any code issues. The electrical engineer never talks to the mechanical engineer or architect ever !! And they all size the electrical rooms too small . The only projects i enjoy doing are power plants its planned its electrical equip & conduit and trays and buss duck is routed & elevations given to and from for you on a print and anyone in your way moves and the engineer team is on site to assist with issues . In commercial the electrician is doing the planning & routing on his own . I have to tell a electrical engineer that this is not going to work sometimes and i get paid less!!! We are always up front never wait to the end of a project all our problems and code issues are docked 6 months pior to the start of the project .comments take care be SAFE!

Some of us engineers do talk with the mechanical guys. Some of us do argue for every inch of space we can get from an architect. Getting solid information is not always as easy as it should be. Yes, things get missed. You have the benefit of understanding the spatial relationships in the real world. We have to trust that the dimensions we're given from manufacturers (if they are available) are accurate ... and even if they are somebody is bound to provide a different sized equal.

IMO, good relationships between the entire design team ... and then with the contractors on site is what makes a good project. I really do appreciate comments and suggestions from the contractors, which is why I frequent this forum. I have learned a lot from RFIs and walking around job sites, I listen to and often heed suggestions of, on site contractors. I have learned to think about how to get from point A to point B ... I will teach those younger than me to think about things like that in advance as well instead of making them learn it on their own.

I'm still not perfect, and I never will be. But until there is civil conversations between the contractors and the engineers (some do) instead of money grubbing change orders (some do) projects will be delayed and overbudget.

Yes, I understand that there are a lot of enginers out there that don't care (I've worked for them) ... but we're not all like that.

Sorry for the attitude, but occasionally I need to stick up for us designers!

 

[hillbilly1]

I have talked wth engineers on big box stores about discrepancies on prints, and a lot of it is the customer fails to provide info and specifications on equiptment, so they just have to make an educated guess at whats being installed. As for re-engineering, I have had to do a lot of it over the years, that being said, be careful what you re-engineer, because it puts you on the liability hook. I have one job that had an onsite engineer on an idustrial job that I installed everything per his direction, and now I am being blamed for not re-engineering something he required. If I'm to engineer it, why pay the engineer!

 

[drbond24]

Questions like this make me nervous...

I don't know you and don't claim to, so don't take this personally because it isn't directed at you personally.

I've known electricians there were a little too eager to re-engineer something that stupid _____ _____ _____ engineer did wrong (insert your own adjectives there). The engineer may have had a reason for doing something the way they did. Either way they should be contacted before their design is changed. Let them make the change instead of doing it yourself. From the electricians perspective, this should be desireable since it will keep the liability squarely on the engineer.

That having been said, of course engineers make mistakes and you can't be expected to install something that violates the NEC. Again I say, however, that the engineer should be contacted to make the change instead of doing it yourself.

 

[charlie b]

Sorry for the attitude, but occasionally I need to stick up for us designers!

I didn't detect an attitude issue, and I thank you for standing up for the design end of the business. I agree with you that EEs and MEs (and plumbing engineers also) can and do coordinate our design efforts. We could not succeed, as a business entity, if we did not.

So for the record, if any EC thinks my design contains an NEC violation, I want to hear about it. If you are correct, I will do what is necessary to make it right. Use whatever communication method the bid process has provided, such as an RFI, so that any aditional funds to which you are entitled will be provided for. But please don't second guess me. I might have made a design decision for a specific purpose, and I might in fact be in compliance with the NEC. I would not have you blindly overridding my decisions.

 

[MIEngineer]

As the "Owner" of the facilities I expect our ECs and contract engineers to play nice. Any changes are relayed as well as a cost impact and justification must be provided. Not being compliant with safety or code issues are always ones that get the most attention. Fault is not usually assigned but it is noticed.

We also ask our ECs to bring ups any possible issues to us before construction, if possible. This is done through the us of site meetings, RFIs, or just a casual conversation. Any changes are paid for regardless of when the issue is noticed but if they continually wait until the end of the job and then force us to re-do portions they will not be on our "short list" for long.

 

[ohmhead]

Well please do not take me as one who is just picking on electrical engineers today ,with due respect for your electrical knowledge and capable given talent and qualifications may i apologize to the engineers on this forum , who do a good job .This was a statement of general construction areas and not limited to one state or country in this matter . Its just that on most jobs we always seem to find problems with the design and we as electricians must find the problem or pay the price with our jobs at stake if we do not crack the missing link money is lost . looking at hundreds of electrical prints & drawings involved on most projects is a mistake going to be missed yes .We think if you make a document it should be accurate its a plan or contract on paper , we use it to install by its bid that way . And if done correctly it will save dollars for the electrical contractor and the construction manager to complete a job with less stress .We all work as one team i wish i could sit down and talk just once with you guys before my next job .It will never happen as i work in the field and write RFI,S which is then rewriten by my company then to the contractor and reworded incorrectly so the electrical engineer sees not what i asked but something totally wrong!!! we need to talk directly not go thur a third party .comments take care be SAFE

 

[JWCELECTRIC]

Ohmshead, Just pickup the phone and call the engineer directly. Most times engineers see an installation one way and field conditions dictate how it is actually going to be installed. If it can't be handled over the phone then send your RFI, we always need more paper on our desks. Today I think Engineers are push for time to complete a design with a limited budget. From an electrical design point the electrical engineer is the last one to see all the other disciplines equipment that needs a electrical connection, usually less than a week before the project hits the street. Yea some stuff gets missed (good for a change order why complain!). But the main focus is to put a design on paper without any violations that is good for all parties involed.

JWC

 

[ptrip]

I always prefer the contractor call me directly first. We will discuss the issue, if he can email me a picture of the situation, even better! Then, if it does need changed, follow up with a formal RFI. This way I can get the RFI turned around quickly (because I'm already familiar with the issue at hand) ... and there's the paper trail to protect us all.

JWC is correct ... I generally don't have all the mechanical information until just a week or so before the project is due to go out ... which reduces/eliminates some time for QC and polishing. But that shouldn't matter. Ohmhead is correct that drawings are called "Contract Drawings" for a reason and they should be right. That's also why, in most commercial projects, there's a procedure for change orders ... which get paid for in premium (and then my ass gets handed to me by the architect and the client).

Just as there are hack contractors out there that take shortcuts and install things how they've "always done it" instead of to local code ... there are hack engineers out there that just want to do their 40 and go home and hang on to CYA statements like "per manufacturer instructions" and "per local code" like their going out of style! I have to admit that I've done my fair share of that as well!

<sigh> Can't we all just get along?! LOL

 

[petersonra]

I design equipment, not installations, but sometimes part of that is making accomodations for installations, and giving the contractors enough information to make the install.

The thing that aggravates me is they will ask for information, I will put it on the prints, and then the installers inevitably do something different anyway.

Its especially annoying when I put in stuff for future projects, such as spare conductors, or even spare conduits, and they don't get installed and it gets found out in the second phase of the project. By then the guy that didn't install it according the the print is long gone.

 

[WastefulMiser]

I'd rather deal with contractors over manufacturing any day of the week.

 

[ohmhead]

Well this is what really happens our company bids a job they get a call from a construction manager that we are awarded the job next a letter of intent , we get 20 sets of 90 % prints and our company brings in the team of electricians to review the drawns and do a take off we re estimate the job again . I do distribution only every switchboard feeder all power generation . We route conduits underground over head and use mechanical electrical and plumbing ,structual ect ect to layout the job plan it and beat that estimate if we fine a problem we write a RFI we usally write 100 to 200 RFI ,s on most projects it takes 3 or 4 months of planing the jobs layout and cads and prints are designed for that project months before we start . This is what is in our contract to write the construction manager and we must go thur him with the paper trail . We can not go directly to a engineer ever its in our scope and contract .We never see the engineer or speak to the engineer ever , I mostly work in the field installing the work layout and run a crew of 30 electricians we do the power dist . Only time ive seen engineers or the bankers & owners is at a toppin out party or just if they do there walk quarterly at the site but i have never spoke with one yet . They look at our work in our electrical yards ceps and electrical rooms and leave . best to yas

 

[mcelweec@gmail.com]

This is where I started,just met the ahj today,he knocked my proposed plan.The contractor and the engineer are one and the same,yet I am still looking for solutions for the same problem,see my new post entitled "modifications",am I an idiot for looking for solutions?