For the California guys....

[e57]

As many of you know - California now has a "Certification" (Worker licensing) and CEU requirement. Since the law was signed in 1999, and postponed for much of its existance (~ until '06 through several revisions and court battles behind the scenes...)

And many of you also know that it is completely mis-managed, rarely enforced if at all - and that EVERYONE in the first round (Like myself) now has to get thier CEU's done - SOON! This is roughly 30,000 people! Since no "APPROVED" classes or CEU's we're available through much of the last 6 years, and only recently come available through the few outlets that are allowed to provide training for the whole state - it means there is a huge crush of people trying to get them done right now - like myself.

For those who don't know the history of this law - the original incarnation only allowed training for one source. Then the Fed's pulled all Apprentice training funds as the Fed's don't give funds to states with single source training. Then the state allowed other sources 'if approved" then quickly 'un-approved' all but one source - which went to court.... Now - while a few more sources have been approved (including of all things Wyotech) the CEU classes have been slow to arrive. And what few there are are hard to locate - if not hard to get to, since for some it meant driving 100 or more miles for a month of Saturday's to cram 4-8 hour classes in......

Well - now there is good news - you can do them on-line - and all in one shot. (Unlike myself, who is piecing 5 on-line items together for my 32 - which are paid for...)

The other good news is that is Mike Holt - but since it needs to be "approved" - by an "approved" school - then you have to get it through them.....

Sign Up: Journeymen can call (877) 444-9322 or visit www.weca-iec.org to sign up for the 32-hour Continuing Education Home Study program. WECA will mail the student a copy of Mike Holt's Illustrated Guide to Understanding the NEC textbook along with a welcome packet to get started.


Log On: As the student completes each chapter in the textbook, he or she will log on to the Mike Holt website to take the corresponding test using a unique ID #.



Receive A Certificate of Completion: Once the student has read the text and passed all tests, the student notifies WECA via phone or e-mail and we will mail a certificate of completion. It's that easy!

 

[norcal]

I took the CEU course from this outfit, http://www.castatetest.com/continuededucation/eccdemo/eccdemo.html It's done, paid my $100 DAS accepted it and the CEU course, so I got my nice wittle card from Prometric.

 

[ibew441dc]

Incomplete information !

Incomplete information !

As many of you know - California now has a "Certification" (Worker licensing) and CEU requirement. Since the law was signed in 1999, and postponed for much of its existance (~ until '06 through several revisions and court battles behind the scenes...)

And many of you also know that it is completely mis-managed, rarely enforced if at all - and that EVERYONE in the first round (Like myself) now has to get thier CEU's done - SOON! This is roughly 30,000 people! Since no "APPROVED" classes or CEU's we're available through much of the last 6 years, and only recently come available through the few outlets that are allowed to provide training for the whole state - it means there is a huge crush of people trying to get them done right now - like myself.

For those who don't know the history of this law - the original incarnation only allowed training for one source. Then the Fed's pulled all Apprentice training funds as the Fed's don't give funds to states with single source training. Then the state allowed other sources 'if approved" then quickly 'un-approved' all but one source - which went to court.... Now - while a few more sources have been approved (including of all things Wyotech) the CEU classes have been slow to arrive. And what few there are are hard to locate - if not hard to get to, since for some it meant driving 100 or more miles for a month of Saturday's to cram 4-8 hour classes in......

Well - now there is good news - you can do them on-line - and all in one shot. (Unlike myself, who is piecing 5 on-line items together for my 32 - which are paid for...)

The other good news is that is Mike Holt - but since it needs to be "approved" - by an "approved" school - then you have to get it through them.....

e57,

With all do respect, many of your above statements are merely opinion, and not facts based on any sound reference. It is very much as toxic as passing opinions on a code rule that one has never read for themselves (we all seem to screw it up enough when we do read what it says).

I will completely agree with you that it is poorly managed and under enforced(up until recently) , but you have it wrong in regard to CEU's......

 

[ibew441dc]

CA Renewal Certification Questions

CA Renewal Certification Questions

Take a look at the following link....I think you will be interested in the facts from the Department of Industrial Relations.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm#8

 

[e57]

Norcal - glad you got yours in. Although mine expires 6-28 - need to get mine finished by 5-28, as they want the paper work in a month early for some stupid reason.

There was a thread a while back about this on-line thing, and I'm not sure if it was the one you got there, or a different one but it looks REALLY simular. It (if it is the one - at the time) had a whole FAQ about why the state was going to accept their product - it didn't inspire any confidence so I moved on. If I remember right it said something to the effect that the state was only taking approved educational providers - and their parent company onwed another company that was - for something completely unrelated - and there fore they were approved. It sounded a bit dodgy to me.... Considering how little time I had/have....

 

[e57]

e57,

With all do respect, many of your above statements are merely opinion, and not facts based on any sound reference. It is very much as toxic as passing opinions on a code rule that one has never read for themselves (we all seem to screw it up enough when we do read what it says).

I will completely agree with you that it is poorly managed and under enforced(up until recently) , but you have it wrong in regard to CEU's......

Beg to disagree - I have followed this law rather closely since over the years - went so far as to read much of the testimony for and against it right at it start (AB-931), subsequent revisions. While opinion is much like beauty - it is in the eye of the beholder.

So far the only recent methods of enforcement that I know of are used to disqualify bidders of PW projects using the methods of a law passed at the same time - a sister law a kin, and tied directly to this one.

While I'm usually not the type to 'never say never' - please do tell me where I'm wrong here.

While the site rules forbid the elephant in the room - politics of the union merit type - feel free to PM me.

Take a look at the following link....I think you will be interested in the facts from the Department of Industrial Relations.

http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ECU_FAQ.htm#8

Off topic slightly - but in my previous post in responce to Norcal about accepted schools and the FAQ's I saw a while back - from the link you posted... Thanks for riminding me....

Who may offer continuing education?
A: In addition to the entities (#1-3) mentioned below, any other entities can provide continuing education.
1) community colleges, public school districts, public educational institutions; or,
2) a state-licensed private post-secondary institution under contract with a community college, public school district, or public educational institution; or,

(Bold and color mine) But thats what it was - their sister company were "Under contract"....

 

[norcal]

Norcal - glad you got yours in. Although mine expires 6-28 - need to get mine finished by 5-28, as they want the paper work in a month early for some stupid reason.

There was a thread a while back about this on-line thing, and I'm not sure if it was the one you got there, or a different one but it looks REALLY simular. It (if it is the one - at the time) had a whole FAQ about why the state was going to accept their product - it didn't inspire any confidence so I moved on. If I remember right it said something to the effect that the state was only taking approved educational providers - and their parent company onwed another company that was - for something completely unrelated - and there fore they were approved. It sounded a bit dodgy to me.... Considering how little time I had/have....

I was real slooow, did not mail it until the day before it was due, so overnighted it through USPS* to SF so it got there before it was late, it took 2 weeks for them to acknowledge that they accepted & another week to get the card.

Note: Being late means taking the exam again + still paying for everything else(renewal fee ,CEU's) & the exam.

*The DAS address is a PO box so FedEx & UPS are out as a shipper.

Edit: I did get the link from the thread in this forum, hemmed & hawwed for a while before deciding to pay the fees and get on with it.

 

[ibew441dc]

While I'm usually not the type to 'never say never' - please do tell me where I'm wrong here.

CEU's do not have to be taken from an approved anything!......There are many opportunists out there capitalizing on this fact. Hey I think I'm going to start having CEU courses in my garage $600 a day......and it would be perfectly legal, and there's a lot of suckers out there that would gladly pay (Union or Non-Union).

While the site rules forbid the elephant in the room - politics of the union merit type - feel free to PM me.

I'm not really sure why you would suggest this is a Union/Merit type conversation:-? Regardless of ones affiliation we all live under the same sun and the law we are discussing applies equally. BTW if we side track to a PM then many who are interested will not get in on the action:smile:

Off topic slightly - but in my previous post in responce to Norcal about accepted schools and the FAQ's I saw a while back - from the link you posted... Thanks for riminding me....
(Bold and color mine) But thats what it was - their sister company were "Under contract"....

Who may offer continuing education?
A: In addition to the entities (#1-3) mentioned below, any other entities can provide continuing education.
1) community colleges, public school districts, public educational institutions; or,
2) a state-licensed private post-secondary institution under contract with a community college, public school district, or public educational institution; or,

Not off topic at all.....this is exactly what I'm talking about, many get stuck thinking that 1,2,or 3 is mandatory (usually costing an arm and a leg), and don't pay attention to (A).

Who can I take continuing education from?
A: Continuing education can be provided by any entity as long as a Certificate of Completion is provided to all electricians who attend their class. DAS – Electrician Certification does not have the authority to approve and or have a listing of continuing education providers.

Who may offer continuing education?
A: In addition to the entities (#1-3) mentioned below, any other entities can provide continuing education.
1) community colleges, public school districts, public educational institutions; or,
2) a state-licensed private post-secondary institution under contract with a community college, public school district, or public educational institution; or,
3) federal or state apprenticeship programs.

 

[e57]

CEU's do not have to be taken from an approved anything!......There are many opportunists out there capitalizing on this fact. Hey I think I'm going to start having CEU courses in my garage $600 a day......and it would be perfectly legal, and there's a lot of suckers out there that would gladly pay (Union or Non-Union).

Not off topic at all.....this is exactly what I'm talking about, many get stuck thinking that 1,2,or 3 is mandatory (usually costing an arm and a leg), and don't pay attention to (A).

Point taken - I will add that the text you highlighted is new as it was not there 3 months ago - or reflective of previous and recent debates on the topic. Nor is it reflective of the CAC meeting minutes I was following last year. And explains the removal of the superfluous disclaimers from the CATesting site posted by Norcal.

I'm not really sure why you would suggest this is a Union/Merit type conversation:-? Regardless of ones affiliation we all live under the same sun and the law we are discussing applies equally. BTW if we side track to a PM then many who are interested will not get in on the action:smile:

1. It always has been the elephant in the room with this topic since its inception, and for the foreseeable future, will be.
2. Forum polices disallow such... Due to the many chest beating incidents of the past that go nowhere and poison the forum. And the moderator will pull it - if they haven't already while I type this.....
3. Then maybe I thought it was going there due to your logo/avatar and signature....

 

[ibew441dc]

1. It always has been the elephant in the room with this topic since its inception, and for the foreseeable future, will be.
2. Forum polices disallow such... Due to the many chest beating incidents of the past that go nowhere and poison the forum. And the moderator will pull it - if they haven't already while I type this.....
3. Then maybe I thought it was going there due to your logo/avatar and signature....

(1) agreed
(2) agreed
(3) Judging me because of my logo/avatar....that's Forum Profiling !:grin:
Obviously I am a "Union Guy" but contrary to stereo types brought on by few, most of us just want to better the industry for all of us.....lets face it, never will everyone be happy:smile:

I think to keep our thread on track, my two cents would be to provide the following link http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ElectricalTrade.htm and I strongly recommend that those who it affects, read it thoroughly(especially the FAQ's).

 

[e57]

I think to keep our thread on track, my two cents would be to provide the following link http://www.dir.ca.gov/DAS/ElectricalTrade.htm and I strongly recommend that those who it affects, read it thoroughly(especially the FAQ's).

You are aware that site changes often, and for the most part over the last nearly ten years has been almost purposefully vague? Seriously, for much of the time this law has been in effect now it has been contradictory, flipped flopped information - from an agency considered to be the source of official information. I used to think it pure incompetence, and later plain ol' conspiricy. Then back to the opinion that they are blind pilots of a machine they can not even identify. (Lookin' for what might be a stick or wheel and jambing their feet on what might be peddles.... )

For instance: I found out testing had re-opened in '03 by watching the testing agencies website. By the time the DAS got around to announcing testing was resumed and was urging people to go get tested, the DAS had lost the contract with the testing agency - it then took over two months for them to realize they had lost the contract for testing while Experior (The testing company in its incarnation at the time) was turning people away. During that time they had even ramped up the effort ON ONLY that site for people to go get tested - but there was no place to go get tested at.... These are the same people who did not make a single effort to contact C-10's until AFTER the deadline for testing for General JW had past. I have recieved two mailings since, and all 3 after the fact.

I'll back up for a moment to say that in early '03 I think - I did something that took some doing! I actually got their office on the phone, (Jeanie Katz) who fed me all kinds of bogus information. (Not sure she still works there... But she was in charge of the Certification Program at the time. And an outside consultant at that.) But it was shortly after that I realized that they had no idea how many electricians they were dealing with, and/or what they were going to do next. And that has been the biggest problem. As not only do WE not know what they are going to do next - they don't know what they are going to do next. And if they do - they are not telling anyone.

While of course that site is suppossed to be the official source for official information. It has not always been the clearest, or for that matter, at certain times - the most accurate either. e.g. I have noticed Mike Holts site is still not exactly clear on weather some of thier material is being accepted.

Still listed in a 'gray area'
http://www.mikeholt.com/documents/faq/CEU-Matrix.pdf

And this used to say something to the effect of 'the California DAS has not responded to our calls...'
(I assume they finally spoke to someone...)
http://www.mikeholt.com/previewstatecourses.php?id=14

And it may seem that you might not have to go through a local re-seller of CEU's to get Mike Holt's stuff after all - maybe the fog is clearing? But one thing is certain - when it comes to Electrian Certification in California there has not been much sunshine.

 

[gndrod]

Sun Burn

Sun Burn

But one thing is certain - when it comes to Electrician Certification in California there has not been much sunshine.

Thanks for the discussion of what is still happening in CA. The aspect of approved training courses seems a bit confusing to the tail of the dog (me) when the head does not seem to bark in the right places. At least Mike Holt has tracked what is available and I applaud that.
My question is...Who is the 'decider' to resolve such issues? rbj

 

[e57]

My question is...Who is the 'decider' to resolve such issues? rbj

Unfortunately the California DAS, and the apprenticeship council under them (CAC) - who are notoriously silent, and outside of the apprenticeship committees have no direct contact to the trades of any kind. As mentioned they waited until after the most major deadline to get a list of addresses from the CSLB and contact C-10's. So unless you hung out on forums like this, and heard it through the grapevine, and watched their every move you would have only had heard about this law then. And even then, they have also made no direct appeal, and how could they have - to the employees of C-10's who this effects most. So unless you are a member of a trade organization of some kind that has an interest in training committees and/or has a member on this council - you should watch these people closely. Or get a hotel room at one of these places.

Ultimately it is the Governor who decides who decides what, as he appoints them.

 

[electricguy61]

Let's face it: the journeyman licensing is a joke, much like the general contractors licensing (B), which allows them to do electrical work (whoops, I've got a B license).

 

[e57]

Oh it's no joke my friend. It's a battle for control by big companies and associations trying to yank the big rug out from under each other. We small guys are just pawns in a big money game over who wins the big rug. We're just fibers of much smaller rugs they don't care about. But since this effects all fibers of all rugs - we should care, and care a lot about this. As it will effect where from and who you employ for the rest of time as an EC. And likewise how you as a fiber get turned into yarn, and become part of whatever rug they allow you to become part of.

And oh - would you like me to find the court case, and the CSLB's response about "B's" and multiple trades?

 

[ibew441dc]

You are aware that site changes often, and for the most part over the last nearly ten years has been almost purposefully vague? Seriously, for much of the time this law has been in effect now it has been contradictory, flipped flopped information - from an agency considered to be the source of official information.

I am very aware that the site changes often, and even more aware that most do not pay attention to it regardless.

I used to think it pure incompetence, and later plain ol' conspiricy.

Conspiracy against who:-?? I am a CEU instructor at my local JATC, I provide 8 weeks of 4 hour classes to get ones CEU's. At the JATC we make every attempt to provide the latest information and cert requirements. I had a class that was ending just last week, and I had some renewal forms that I printed less than a week before....I passed them out, and the questions started rolling. My solution was to go directly to the source (DAS=source of confusion:roll....To my surprise and temporary embarrassment while searching the FAQ's, the state is now requiring proof to be sent in. I through away the old renewal forms and printed some new ones. I went to the Assistant Director and asked if he had been notified (he is always in contact with the DAS), and he said no. Upset, he immediately got on the phone and wanted to no why they continue to change the rules at who's discretion with no warning to anyone. The very least they could do is provide a warning that whatever requirement was going to change on such and such a date.

And it may seem that you might not have to go through a local re-seller of CEU's to get Mike Holt's stuff after all - maybe the fog is clearing?

Currently, All Of Mike Holt's Material Is Accepted in the State of CA, as long as a Certificate of Completion is provided. If you get the CEU's form MHE the Cert has to come from them, if you take the CEU's from a JATC it has to come from them, if its from the ABC it has to come from them........If its from Joe Schmo's garage, its good with a Certificate of Completion.

But one thing is certain - when it comes to Electrian Certification in California there has not been much sunshine.

I disagree:smile:, when it comes to the Electricians Certification there's a lot of sunshine......It's perfectly clear to me that the DAS doesn't have there stuff together, they don't get any sunshine because they are hiding in cubicles. (For a while I thought it was getting better, but now I'm not so sure).

 

[ibew441dc]

Let's face it: the journeyman licensing is a joke, much like the general contractors licensing (B), which allows them to do electrical work (whoops, I've got a B license).

I now what you are saying:wink: but just want to be specific.....


The way it is now California Electrician Certification is a Joke!!!! (its not a license)

 

[e57]

Conspiracy against who:-?? ~

Next sentance please....

~ I used to think it pure incompetence, and later plain ol' conspiricy. Then back to the opinion that they are blind pilots of a machine they can not even identify. (Lookin' for what might be a stick or wheel and jambing their feet on what might be peddles.... )

Seriously the DAS, and the CAC don't know if they are riding a horse or a camel!

Sunshine - pretty foggy here.

 

[ibew441dc]

Conspiracy!

Conspiracy!

I used to think it pure incompetence, and later plain ol' conspiricy.

IMO if there is such a conspiracy it is to generate more money to the state at the expense of tax paying electricians.

In a short answer, who is required to be certified?

All electricians who make connections of greater than 100 volt amps who work for C-10 Contractors

Give me a break!:roll: This quote from the DAS spurs a whole new conversation all together . Union or Merit, you only have to be certified if you are making the electrical connections greater than 100 volt amps and work for a C-10.

Solution:roll:......Hire a bunch of laborers to build your raceways, pull the wire, set your gear...ect. Just make sure that when you do the "terminations" that you have a Certified Electrician.

 

[e57]

Upset, he immediately got on the phone and wanted to no why they continue to change the rules at who's discretion with no warning to anyone. The very least they could do is provide a warning that whatever requirement was going to change on such and such a date.

Currently, All Of Mike Holt's Material Is Accepted in the State of CA, as long as a Certificate of Completion is provided. If you get the CEU's form MHE the Cert has to come from them, if you take the CEU's from a JATC it has to come from them, if its from the ABC it has to come from them........If its from Joe Schmo's garage, its good with a Certificate of Completion.

That last part I am not so sure of - I have e-mails Mike Holt's PEEP's and am waiting for a response to that. But will agree that it needs to provide a certificate of completion - not ALL of Mike Holts products do... Only certain ones. And I hope you realize that the reason I questioned this in the first place is that the CAC spent 3 years devising a curriculum to be approved on a case by case basis - and seem to have abandon that track completely in the last 6 months. And yet even their meeting minutes show that they were still doing so at their last meetings. Confusing - YEP!