Panel replacement & AFCI

[cowboyjwc]

I'm not in NJ, but I would question how ( if AFCI's are required ) you would address any existing MWBC that are existing ? There is no NEC requirement to add AFCI's to an existing system.

I would agree.

 

[Davis Electrical]

Interesting thought process here..

So when the rules become unreasonable people try and find ways around them. Hence the hack calls.

When money becomes the driving factor they call the handyman extra ordinary or known to us as hack the handyman.

So who determines when the rules are unreasonable....us...the homeowner..The courts...the legislators..Who...

What no new rules why the heck are you getting together just to have coffee, maybe we should just disband the whole organization..

So are the rules that govern us really necessary or a by-product of a system that is an integral part of the machine..

No way would I stir the pot on a Sunday and then leave..

Interesting post and since you have taken the time to ask these several questions, I thought perhaps I should take the time to answer.

When the rules become unreasonable, we ignore them. And when they become both unreasonable AND costly, we circumvent them. And electicians, traditionally, are the very first to cut corners.

I live on eastern Long Island where the average new home is a minimum of 2500 sq ft. If I attempt to wire this house conscientiously, we are talking a minimum of 30 ckts. Combine the cost of additional GFIs, AFCIs, Smoke and CO2 detectors, the bypass meter pan. and throw in the new pool grid, and we're talking an added cost that runs into many thousands.

You ask who determines when the rules are unreasonable. Well, the answer is simple - the people do. When authorities overstep their bounds, when too much power is allotted to an unreasonably demanding civil body, the people question. Such actions very readily fall within the scope, category, of evolutionary "human interaction." American exists for this very reason.

Do you know that the state of PA has never adopted the NEC? It is not, then, either integral or incidental, is it?

Truthfully, none of these rules make any sense at all. It makes no sense to install so many smokes and AFCIs in a home that is newly wired and has been inspected. Perhaps they would have made sense 35 or 40 or 50 years ago when the home owner purchased a brass lamp for life and electrcians were routinely called to replace a lamp cord because the original had deteriorated. But they make no sense at all anymore. (Yes, the average electrician rewired literally thousands of lamps.)

Such devices have NEVER saved so much as one life here on eastern Long Island and they never will because when they begin to fail the homeowner will eliminate them. Simple cost based economics.

 

[JohnJ0906]

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Truthfully, none of these rules make any sense at all. It makes no sense to install so many smokes and AFCIs in a home that is newly wired and has been inspected. Perhaps they would have made sense 35 or 40 or 50 years ago when the home owner purchased a brass lamp for life and electrcians were routinely called to replace a lamp cord because the original had deteriorated. But they make no sense at all anymore. (Yes, the average electrician rewired literally thousands of lamps.)

Such devices have NEVER saved so much as one life here on eastern Long Island and they never will because when they begin to fail the homeowner will eliminate them. Simple cost based economics.

I have to disagree with you about the smoke detectors. Just because a house is brand new doesn't mean that there won't be a fire. And smokes DO save lives.

 

[Davis Electrical]

I have never heard of so much as a single person say, "Wow, that smoke detector saved my life."

Asking us to install 15 of them in a newly wired home is like insisting that everyone when gets on a new boat wear a life jacket. Couple this with the GFIs, the CO2 detectors, and AFCIs at 35 a pop what we have is insanity and an electrician who's looking to circumvent or fake out an inspector. And you know this is going on because half the time the devices either interfere with the homeowners activities or they malfunction.

Back in the 1950s, average people got jobs, bought a piece of property and built a new home. This has become virtually impossible for young people today. And now they want to add another 5K to the price of a newly wired home? What kind of a country are we living in?

I would also add that the electrician does not profit on these devices simply because the homeowner does not want to pay for them. He'll pay for extra tile in the bath, or top soil for the yard, but he does not want to pay 1500 for circuit breakers. The electricians are going to eat a large part of the cost of installation. And the electrician is always the last person to get paid.

 

[billsnuff]

"Wow, that smoke detector saved my life."

Had something in the oven, was in the basement and forgot, smoke went off.
save my life? NAH but i didn't have to repaint to git rid of the smell.

my aunt lost a daughter (age 8) in a house fire, i bet she would have gladly paid for the smoke and the electrician...........

 

[Davis Electrical]

Had something in the oven, was in the basement and forgot, smoke went off.
save my life? NAH but i didn't have to repaint to git rid of the smell.

my aunt lost a daughter (age 8) in a house fire, i bet she would have gladly paid for the smoke and the electrician...........

Well to tell you honestly, this particular house belongs to my son and there are three kids involved so, yes, sure... for this very reason, I am going to concede. And, in fact, this is the reason I am rewiring this house; I've rewired probably 95% of it.

I want to try this one more time: We've essentially gutted this house and there is a 15 by 45 addition that is without a CO, also a detached garage, a couple of decks without COs, etc. So the addition has to be inspected. Local building code requires that I install the extra smokes in both the new and the original partion of the house. NEC requires that they be AFI protected.

There is an existing attic blower unit for the A/C. It is fed by a 15 amp circuit and there is a smoke detector in the hallway below it that is wired into the controls to shut down the blower in the event of fire so that smoke is not circulated throughout the entire house. Makes sense (I think; I'm not realy sure). I would like to add the additional smokes directly to the current smoke so that they will continue to provide the same level of safety. I am concerned about the AFI requirement because if I feed this circuit with an AFI it will likely trip. (But, hey, I can try it.)

Anyway, I've already made a decision on this. I am wiring to the existing and skipping the AFI if necessary because I feel it will provide a greater margin of safety. What I am wondering is if I am approaching this wrong - is it possible that I should be approaching this from a fire safety side?

Why is the code silent on this application? OR, I should ask, do you know if the IS code silent on this kind of application?

Thank you for your participation.

 

[Davis Electrical]

And, uhh, PS:

Same "level of safety" should probably read "Same level of protection." And please excuse the typos and SPs. Thank you very much.

 

[Davis Electrical]

And PSS:

You know, I have followed the code for over 35 years and I don't so much have a problem with additional smokes or CO2 detectors as I do with this whole house AFI requirement. It's simply ridiculous. One, when wiring new homes all lighting ckts should be 14ga, 15A ckts. What we achieve in the process is this thing I refer to as "instantaneous trip." And instantaneous trip is essential. We do not achieve this, for example, when wiring lighting ckts with 12 wire, or when putting them on a 20A ckt. And I personally feel that "instantaneous trip" is sufficient, particularly in light of the fact that the days of the deteriorated lamp cord are long gone. Even if AFIs were inexpensive, I feel that they are too restrictive. The home owner should have the ability to run a circular saw in his bedroom if he so desires (I KNOW I have done it many times).

 

[Master Springdog]

Here in MA, when swapping out a service Inspectors are not requiring AFCI breakers to existing circuits. But if you add a circuit to a bedroom,family room, etc. the AFCI breaker needs to be installed.

 

[cschmid]

yeppers my questions have been fully answered and illustrated.

So what is next for us as electricians??

How come home owners are the targets of so many codes issues and changes??

Yet with all the code changes and the continued code violations by home owners. even if a fire occurs and the local fire marshal insist it is a electrical fire the insurance still pays.. so why the continued hassle to home owners??

If the home owner does not care about his life or the life of their family and friends should it not be is responsibility for his actions and not our responsibility??