Changing breaker live

[cschmid]

I bet if you ask, every single electrician thinks he/she is qualified (Few are), and they will all say they are good. Everyone will think they know how to work live safely, always have always will, and as long as they keep thinking that there will be thousands severly injured and hundereds killed every year.

I guess you cant teach old dogs new tricks.

I guess you may not beable to teach old dogs new tricks..yet as an old dog better teach the young the truth and maybe they will get to teach their young new tricks

I had 2 near electrocutions on my job last week both excelent mechanics 30+ yrs experience follow osha rules as best they can. One backhoe broke a streetlighting pipe pulled out of the handhole back into the pipe. Went to pull the wirenut back out of the pipe and a bare bad strip on the copper was in between the wirenutted wires. Kneeling on moist ground finger got caught in between the 277v conductors. Was like a snake on a barbeque grill. His partner tried to pull him off first time he got hit badly too. He got back on his feet and got a good running start and knocked him free saving his life.

Wow man this is going to be educational section now. Zog is a smart man in this arena. I am going to rely on some help here though.

In a "perfect world" we would work on everything de-energized. We all know that is not possible. While the 70E "technically" applied to all electrical work, not all of it really does. The electric shock stuff applies to all, easy enough, wear glove, use insulated tools, etc...

What gets everyones panties in a bunch is the arc flash part. There are certian energy levels where an arc is not self sustaining. Lots of variables on this level, hard to determine, and the current guidelines (IEEE 1584) are suspect. What the 1584 says is that an arc flash study is not required for equipment <240V fed by a transformer <125 kVA. That eliminates a ton of stuff that most electricians work on. Note, is dosent come out and say there is not an arc flash hazard at this level, but rather you should use the tables. Looksat the tables and for most of the stuff most people work on it is HRC 0, that just means wear fabrics that dont melt and safety glasses. The stuff everyone has been required to wear by OSHA since 1981. Nothing new.

95% of the people complaining about the 70E requirements have no idea what they are.
95% of electricians dont work on the high energy equipment that will put you and everyone else in the room in a casket or burn center if you make one mistake.

Someday the 70E will change the scope to eliminate most of the stuff found in resi and light commercial, once the research has been done to know where to draw that line. There are some very smart people working on this, millions of volunteer hours, millions of donated dollars for the research and testing. Give them some time, they will make this all easier. Until then, tune up your spidey senses.

P.S. Those poeple that make stupid comments about the "people making the rules not having any experiiance", are the clueless ones. These people are trying to save lives, your lives, they are way smarter than you and are donating thier time.

Now there is a some good words of knowledge their. lets see if i can build on them now.

okay here goes I do not have any access to my nfpa 70E manuals or to OSHA docs on the road. only can use viewer online and that would mean a word for word retype and at 30 words a minute that is not going to happen. so If all you experts want to chime in and put the cut and pasted text in please feel free too.

We are talking live work here are we not???

Live work is covered under chapter 4 of NFPA 70E which is electrical safety in the work place correct. this chapter does not talk about good electricians or even experienced electricians. It does not use the terms journeyman or even master electricians. It uses the terms Qualified person and what I would like to see is what all of you think qualified is.

So if anyone who has NFPA 70E on disk would care to cut a paste the exact wording for me on the qualified person section that would be great.

 

[CWillcox]

ARTICLE 100 Definitions:
Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved. [70, 2008]

 

[zog]

It is the first safety FAQ

http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=99114

 

[zog]

Zog, keep making the clueless, ignorant, old dog, smarter than you cracks.... that'll win you a lot of converts.

Well some people are clueless that is proven every day in the field and in this forum. There is lots of stuff I am clueless about too, I am not afraid to admit that.

Lots of people are ignorant about arc flash, that means they dont have the training, knowledge, or understanding of what the hazards are and how to know when a real hazard exists.

There are some old dogs that will never change, I have trained thousands of electricians over my career and have run into a few of them.

And...the majority of the 70E and 1584 commitee guys have PHd's in tier field and are world renowned in thier field, they are smarter than me, and I bet smarter than you too.

I am not trying to "convert" anyone, I leave that to the religious groups, I prefer to present the facts and let you decide what to do with them.

 

[cschmid]

I have read the defition so how do you guys out there interpret this statement. I know how ZOG does.

So what do you guys feel meets thoughs requirments. I ask this because alot of us actually are not qualified electricians.

I have had the training but it is not up to date so that makes me experienced not qualified and this is my opinion. So who's responsibility is it to get the training Mine or my employeer? who's responsible for knowing me or my employeer? how about if your self employeed who" resposible? who is going to win in a law suit? just question for you to ponder...

Remember I no longer am the director I am an exspensive light bulb changer..I am now at the bottom of the pole..I know my boss does not or if he does I have seen no training..So who responsibility is it???

 

[zog]

I have read the defition so how do you guys out there interpret this statement. I know how ZOG does.

So what do you guys feel meets thoughs requirments. I ask this because alot of us actually are not qualified electricians.

"Qualified person" is the OSHA and 70E term, has nothing to do with being an electrician. IMO a "qualified electrican" is one with a license and has a seperate issue.

I have had the training but it is not up to date so that makes me experienced not qualified and this is my opinion. So who's responsibility is it to get the training Mine or my employeer?

Your employer.

 

[realolman]

Well some people are clueless that is proven every day in the field and in this forum. There is lots of stuff I am clueless about too, I am not afraid to admit that.

Lots of people are ignorant about arc flash, that means they dont have the training, knowledge, or understanding of what the hazards are and how to know when a real hazard exists.

There are some old dogs that will never change, I have trained thousands of electricians over my career and have run into a few of them.

And...the majority of the 70E and 1584 commitee guys have PHd's in tier field and are world renowned in thier field, they are smarter than me, and I bet smarter than you too.

I am not trying to "convert" anyone, I leave that to the religious groups, I prefer to present the facts and let you decide what to do with them.

No, Zog, what you are doing is being arrogant, disrespectful, and rude.

 

[zog]

No, Zog, what you are doing is being arrogant, disrespectful, and rude.

You quoted me saying I was clueless about stuff and you call me arrogant? I dont think I have been disrespctful to anyone, there have been lots of disrespectful comments on this thread, but dont think any of mine were.

 

[mxslick]

You quoted me saying I was clueless about stuff and you call me arrogant? I dont think I have been disrespctful to anyone, there have been lots of disrespectful comments on this thread, but dont think any of mine were.

In the three years I've been here I have NEVER seen any rude or disrespectful posts from you Zog.

Get a grip people and stay on topic! The discussion in this thread is a serious one and no matter what your personal feelings are, changing breakers hot is a very dangerous thing and there has been a LOT of useful information and field experience brought up in this thread.

Let's keep it in that direction before this gets locked.

Sheesh.

 

[realolman]

I never meant you were clueless... I meant YOU calling OTHERS clueless and ignorant etc. wasn't going to win you many converts.

I guess you cant teach old dogs new tricks.

P.S. Those poeple that make stupid comments about the "people making the rules not having any experiiance", are the clueless ones.

Lots of people are ignorant about arc flash, that means they dont have the training, knowledge, or understanding of what the hazards are and how to know when a real hazard exists

Most of us old dogs got old without having to learn any tricks from you

 

[zog]

I never meant you were clueless... I meant YOU calling OTHERS clueless and ignorant etc. wasn't going to win you many converts.

Read it again, I called myself clueless, you quoted it and called me arrogant.

Most of us old dogs got old without having to learn any tricks from you

True, but many of you didnt, many faced an early death or worse. Electrical worker has been the 3rd most dangerous job for a long time (BLS). Back in the early 1900's the fatality rates were 50%, yes 50%!!! You think that would have been OK to keep things the way it was or has the long gradual evolution of electrical saftey been worth it to save the lives in 1 out of 2 electrical workers?? (Union guys, no seniority jokes here). 2,000 arc flash victims are sent to burn centers each year in the US. 2,000! You ever been in a burn unit? It is hell.

15 years ago there were about 1,200 deaths (BLS again) from electrical contact by electrical workers in the US, latest numbers (2007) it is closer to 400. Why? Because 15 years ago OSHA wrote the "final rule" (1994) that required "qualification" of electrical worker working on or near exposed electrical equipment, including insultaion requirements (Rubber gloves, insulated tools), and gaurding/sheilding techniques. Now 15 years later there are about 800 lives being saved every year. To me that is a new trick worth learning for any old dog, as are arc flash protection rules.

Be safe, lucky, or dead. Your choice.

 

[zog]

In the three years I've been here I have NEVER seen any rude or disrespectful posts from you Zog.

You may have missed a few rude ones, but Mark is banned now, so I am more even tempered.

 

[George Stolz]

Can I invite the fellas who are getting a little personal to tone it down a little bit? Thanks.

 

[M. D.]

from Mike Holts latest Newsletter ,.. Ironically enough it happened on Good Friday,.. apparently not for these two guys ...

While performing an annual test of a 480 volt fire pump controller in compliance with NFPA 20 and 25 a former co worker and his helper were injured.
With the controller door open and the fire pump running he was moving his amp probe from one phase leg to another.
This is a common practice during start-up and annual testing. An unknown short occurred resulting in an ARC Flash.

He lost his eye, eye lid, part of his lower lip, three fingers and was burned over 60% of his body. The helper who was standing 10-15' away received burns over 65% of his body and was blinded for sometime by ARC Flash. They both had to have fires on them extinguished. Both of them will be in a burn unit for 6-8 months of recovery.

 

[realolman]

Much of this is scare tactics, and pure and simple. Another large portion is berating of anyone who disagrees as being stupid or ignorant. Mostly it's money driven.

IF the statistic of the 50% death rate is true, what has a statistic from one hundred and nine years ago to do with this. What does that mean anyway?... that in 1900 there were two electricians and one got killed? By what? Did his wooden handled screwdriver break tightening a hot terminal? Are you saying half the electricians were killed by arc flash? Does the law of diminishing returns have any relevence here? Or is it just "I'm smarter than you ...you should be glad to do what I say."

If this is truly strictly scientific , how about providing the statistics regarding how many boxes, panels etc. have been opened while energized since 1900 without incident... then you will be providing useful information instead of emotional horror stories... allowing some of us lesser individuals to make a more informed decision.

 

[cschmid]

ARTICLE 100 Definitions:
Qualified Person. One who has skills and knowledge related to the construction and operation of the electrical equipment and installations and has received safety training to recognize and avoid the hazards involved. [70, 2008]

thank you

so lets see here

1st. one has to have skills.
2nd. one has to have knowledge electrical equipment
3rd. one has to have received safety training
4th one needs to know how to recognize and ad-void the hazards involved.

this is from NFPA 70E correct..

I also believe OSHA states it the same. But I did not look it up. I believe it is 1910.331 area if you are looking. while you are there can you cut and paste the required safety training by OSHA.

because if this is not part of your training then you are not QUALIFIED.

So let continue here how many of you are qualified and what makes you qualified. You have a license and years worth of experience yet are you qualified or just experienced?

let be real here and honest how many know where to even get the OSHA training can you get it for free or how much does it cost.

I know in MN OSHA does contractor seminars to help train the contractors and I think it is around 100 dollars.

Let hear some input this is about learning how do other states handle it.

 

[zog]

IF the statistic of the 50% death rate is true, what has a statistic from one hundred and nine years ago to do with this. What does that mean anyway?... .

It means that things change, over the last 109 years we have found better, safer ways to do what needs to be done to deliver power to 200 million people, and all thier precious electrical devices. The trade has evolved, and still is evolving, and will evolve long after you and I are gone. But there are some people that fight these changes, ones that are designed to save thier own lives.

 

[Davebones]

Just curious ,if your boss lets you work it hot and a accident happens ,would he not have any legal grounds to stand on ? My understanding OHSA says you have to shut it off . Having worked large industrial most of my life even the power companys are trying to eliminate the hot work in the power plants. Remember OHSA doesn't just come up with these rules ,so many people get hurt or worse killed and then they decide to issue rules .

 

[realolman]

It means that things change, over the last 109 years we have found better, safer ways to do what needs to be done to deliver power to 200 million people, and all thier precious electrical devices. The trade has evolved, and still is evolving, and will evolve long after you and I are gone. But there are some people that fight these changes, ones that are designed to save thier own lives.

I will agree with you. That was very well written.

People could go around showing films of aircraft crashes, and emphasizing the horrible injuries caused, when the fact is that flying is one of the safest modes of travel available.

I think it is unfair to completely ignore the millions of times that work has been done in an enclosure containing energized conductors without incident.

I think it is unfair to catagorize the people who have taken pride in their skills and ability, and their obvious demonstrated success in doing those jobs over decades, as ignorant, stupid, or macho.

Not only unfair, but incorrect as well.

Are you unwilling to recognize that probably millions of tasks have been performed energized for every one arc flash incident?

 

[zog]

Are you unwilling to recognize that probably millions of tasks have been performed energized for every one arc flash incident?

I wish I could, but I cant.

2,000 arc flash victims sent to burn centers each year. And I am sure there are 10 times more arc flash "indidents" that result in minor injuries, (No burn center). So lets say that is 20,000 or so "incidents" each year. A 1 in a million chance would mean there are 20,000,000,000 (20 billion) tasks performed on energized equipment each year in the US.

I would agree that there is more like 1 "incident" for every 1,000 energized tasks performed. (There is actual statistics on this from OSHA, but I will have to dig those up, it was actually 1 in 800 or so if my memory is correct).

Now lets say you do energized work, without the right PPE 4 times a week. A 1 in 1,000 incident rate would mean that on average you will have an incident every 5 years on average.

If everyone would follow the 70E rules, try not to work energized, and when they have to, wear the right PPE, I would like to see your estimate of 1 in a million be true someday. Sure beats the 1 in 2 a hundred years ago.