Changing breaker live

[realolman]

Anyone who has done this work for any length of time knows that your statistics have got to be exagerated, or we'd have all been burned.. none of us would be here.

Having done this for over thirty years, I would have had 6 incidents by now according to your statistics. Fact is, I've had none.

All it would take is for you to be reasonable, and perhaps give some of us "old dogs" a little credit and validation for having some knowlege, skills, and ability, and being capable of making a reasonable decision .... maybe even ask a little input from those who have obviously done much better than your "average".... But no... you can't do that. You are going to tell us what to do.

Since you refuse to do anything but cry "the sky is falling" I suppose there's no point in continuing this "discussion" .

 

[wireguru]

Here is an arc flash incident resulting from installation of a breaker in a live panel. The bus design had insulaters between stacked bus and when the electrican pushed on his screwdriver to install the screw, the buss moved and pushed through the insulation. Its a long pdf, but worth reading and it has some great pictures http://www.hss.energy.gov/csa/csp/aip/accidents/typea/Type_A_Electrical_Arc_SLAC_20041011.pdf

 

[zog]

Anyone who has done this work for any length of time knows that your statistics have got to be exagerated, or we'd have all been burned.. none of us would be here.

Having done this for over thirty years, I would have had 6 incidents by now according to your statistics. Fact is, I've had none.

Now remmember how I defined incident, that dosent mean you were in a burn unit, or even hurt, just that something happened. So you have never dropped a tool and had a small flash, or caused a breaker to trip? Nothing like that, ever? You must be either very skille dor very lucky, maybe some of both. Are you saying you have never made a mistake??

All it would take is for you to be reasonable, and perhaps give some of us "old dogs" a little credit and validation for having some knowlege, skills, and ability, and being capable of making a reasonable decision .... maybe even ask a little input from those who have obviously done much better than your "average".... But no... you can't do that.

I have done nothing but presented actual stastics and quoted real standards. You just reply with a from the hip comment like, "that cant be right" or "call me arrogant and rude". You have not presented one thing in this thread that was a fact, just stuff you think or made up in your head.

That said, yes I do give the more experienced guys credit, some of them really do know how to make the right choices, some only think they do, those are the scary ones. But what should be done? Should OSHA write thier laws so they only apply to someone with less than 20,000 hours experience, that is never tired, that has the steady hands of a surgeon, that never gets distracted, that never follows the work of someone not as knowledgeable as he is?

You are going to tell us what to do.

I have never told you or anyone else what to do, I have simply stated what the existing OSHA laws say.

Since you refuse to do anything but cry "the sky is falling"

What sky? When did I say anything like that?

I suppose there's no point in continuing this "discussion" .

You should have figured that our 100 posts ago.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... Mostly it's money driven. ...

Yes it is very much money driven. The money that is driving the push for additional safety and PPE is the extreme cost of an electrical accident. Often well above a million dollars for a single incident.

 

[kid_stevens]

Anyone who has done this work for any length of time knows that your statistics have got to be exagerated, or we'd have all been burned.. none of us would be here.

Having done this for over thirty years, I would have had 6 incidents by now according to your statistics. Fact is, I've had none.

Since you refuse to do anything but cry "the sky is falling" I suppose there's no point in continuing this "discussion" .

My one and only arc flash went between my legs as I was feeding new wire into the hot panel and my assistant turned loose of the new Ground lead in the old panel that was waiting to be terminated. The end of the wire popped back into the panel and hit the B buss.

After I replaced the 400A fuse I sent the worker home with final paycheck minus the cost of the fuse and labor to replace same.

That work was done hot because the building would not have any power anywhere if the mains were dropped. This means no lights in the power room.

15 civilian years and 7 Navy years with one flash? Stats are really skewed.

 

[cschmid]

My arc fault incident left me with second degree burns because the technician before was unqualified...He was only experienced no training and no education all he had was on the job experience.

you can debate whether these are scare tactics or not or if you can teach an old electrician proper technics or all kinds of stuff.

Yet are you qualified or are you just experienced..no one wants to hear it yet it is real and you can be hurt on the job and not be compensated, lose your job and be held liable for the damages.

So it is your choice.. life is full of choices so what do you choose qualified or liable..

 

[zog]

15 civilian years and 7 Navy years with one flash? Stats are really skewed.

So you are saying that all the BLS and OSHA stastics based on thousands of people and millions of data points are wrong because the number dosent match you?

That is the same as saying the average # of kids per household is wrong because I dont have 2.2 kids. Same logic.

 

[kid_stevens]

So you are saying that all the BLS and OSHA stastics based on thousands of people and millions of data points are wrong because the number dosent match you?

We have all been talking about skewed Data. Where does OSHA get their data anyway. Not from OSHA reports as they are never there when it happens.

Case in point Telecomm Tech takes an uninsulated wrench into the battery room and climbs above the 10KVA buss bars. Drops wrench that is long enough to bridge -52VDC and Ground. Molten metal flies everywhere in the room. None of it hits him and 30 seconds later as he starts to climb down he falls and gets hurt. Because the report written on site names 4 other techs hurt by flying molten metal and he fell and broke a leg after the Arc Blast, they (OSHA) wrote that all 5 where hurt by the Arc Blast. Oh and that because I heard the blast and came running that my hearing must have been damaged. This is what the OSHA report said.

I was in another room with two doors and 2 turns from the ARC. So 6 of us were hurt by the Arc Blast when only 4 really were.

 

[Davebones]

Been doing industrial since 1979 .If you think you can continue to work it " HOT " because you've done it without problems before .In my book you're a FOOL ,just like the one's that say it's just 120v .

 

[jim dungar]

Zog has repeatedly stated his 'numbers' are not limited to arc flash injuries, but rather to all electrical incidents.

For those of you disputing how frequent electrical incidents are: can you really say that in your career you have never owned or used hand tools (cable cutters, screwdrivers, or test leads) with 'burn' marks on them?

 

[realolman]

Zog has repeatedly stated his 'numbers' are not limited to arc flash injuries, but rather to all electrical incidents.....

Actually, I went back and read all Zog's posts.

There were a few scattered comments regarding electrocution, but virtually everything was regarding Arc Flash.

He did not repeatedly state anything that did not infer arc flash.

 

[mivey]

...I sent the worker home with final paycheck minus the cost of the fuse and labor to replace same.

The worker might have sued you for illegal withholding of wages. Might I suggest you try a different approach next time?

Also, I would think you bear some of the responsibility. If this worker was so bad or so green that he/she was fired after this accident, you probably should not have put him/her in that situation to start with. We all make mistakes. Just saying.

...Yet are you qualified or are you just experienced..no one wants to hear it yet it is real and you can be hurt on the job and not be compensated, lose your job and be held liable for the damages...

Wouldn't there have to be some proof of gross negligence or something extreme? Easy enough to lose your job through other avenues (most states make it illegal to terminate for a WC claim).

But to not be compensated for injury or be held liable? WC is supposed to mitigate the need to prove that an injury was the employer's (or employee's) fault and will usually apply to the stupid employee as well. I think Fla allows a 25% reduction in compensation for negligence, but you still have to prove it. There are probably some exclusions for drugs, etc. depending on the jurisdiction.

 

[kid_stevens]

Not here withholding wages to compensate for employee caused damage and even firing without reason is legal here.

He was not a Green worker he was too busy wanting to be somewhere else. The Contractor that lent him to me for a week got rid of him too. He was an Intel Electrician for 5 years and they are very strict up there so his goofing off on a little job was even worse.

Here the crime is so bad the Labor board calls the police and retains workers for false reports and theft problems when they try and make claims for wages when crimes and damage happens.

Honest mistakes I understand too busy fiddling with a cell phone or yakking with someone on the site rather than paying attention good bye.

Workers in this state have less than no rights by law. No required breaks, I give them no lunch if less than 6 hours in a work day , I give them one 30 minute one. Shortest labor law regulations of any state I have ever been in.

 

[mivey]

Not here withholding wages to compensate for employee caused damage and even firing without reason is legal here.

He was not a Green worker he was too busy wanting to be somewhere else. The Contractor that lent him to me for a week got rid of him too. He was an Intel Electrician for 5 years and they are very strict up there so his goofing off on a little job was even worse.

Here the crime is so bad the Labor board calls the police and retains workers for false reports and theft problems when they try and make claims for wages when crimes and damage happens.

Honest mistakes I understand too busy fiddling with a cell phone or yakking with someone on the site rather than paying attention good bye.

Workers in this state have less than no rights by law. No required breaks, I give them no lunch if less than 6 hours in a work day , I give them one 30 minute one. Shortest labor law regulations of any state I have ever been in.

What would have been the situation had he been hurt or killdeer-ed you? Do they get more sympathy in NM if they file a WC claim?

 

[iwire]

Not here withholding wages to compensate for employee caused damage and even firing without reason is legal here.

I find that very unlikely that you can withhold anyones wages without a signature by the employee. Here the labor board will string you up faster then you crack a beer for withholding pay.

 

[kid_stevens]

You submit a legal cost sheet to repair the damage if he makes a claim. Now if you are excessive he gets a reward compensation. 400 Fuse $65 time to replace .5 of an hour (hot darn it) at $60 and hour.

So he had 125 deducted from the final check of 425.

A witnessed mistake accident is a mistake and WC covers it without a word. But a goof off accident voids his rights to WC in New Mexico.

 

[cschmid]

I would bet here you pulled the deduction from his paycheck you would be fined enough that you could of forgot the whole incident. So bill him legally and go to court to collect the cost either way is more cost and hassle then the mistake. So do you have people standing in line for work? Here an attitude like that and no one would apply to work for you.

Mivey this is an interesting area you have brought up. It is the employer?s responsibility to provide the necessary training and protective equipment. So as an licensed employee it is your responsibility to know what is required if your employers asks you to break the law You do not have to and you can not be disciplined for not breaking the law. So WC would cover the injury and probably future medical but monetary gain could be in jeopardy.

So when a licensed contractor changes a breaker live and damages a whole lot of stuff and has to replace it. Is the insurance company responsible for his negligence?

So are you experienced or qualified..this wording is to relieve the financial burden on employers. it is not for the employees benefit.

 

[kid_stevens]

I would bet here you pulled the deduction from his paycheck you would be fined enough that you could of forgot the whole incident.

Mivey this is an interesting area you have brought up. It is the employer’s responsibility to provide the necessary training and protective equipment. So as an licensed employee it is your responsibility to know what is required if your employers asks you to break the law You do not have to and you can not be disciplined for not breaking the law. So WC would cover the injury and probably future medical but monetary gain could be in jeopardy.

So when a licensed contractor changes a breaker live and damages a whole lot of stuff and has to replace it. Is the insurance company responsible for his negligence?

So are you experienced or qualified..this wording is to relieve the financial burden on employers. it is not for the employees benefit.

Here none of what you have written applies in contractor or employee law.

I am very experienced. He was required to have 4 years as an apprentice before his journeyman's license. At Intel he must be a 4 year certified journeyman to get hired on the factory team. Add the 5 years at Intel and his goof off accident is well documented at the NM Labor Board. He is black listed from Union work for 4 years.

I didn't do this union or labor board filing. I just took the legal fees and cost for his goof off mistake. Great state to be a contractor lousy state to be an employee.

Here if the cost was taken to court then he still would have lost and had to pay all court costs. My earlier number had an error he had to pay 95 not 125 because only 1/2 hour was lost at the job site. So if we had to go to court his costs would be 95 + 67 CC and 15 Admin + 10 paperwork legal fees assessed by the court.

I did the deduction legally to all applicable Labor laws. Here we have to pass the contractor tests and 2 law tests, labor and contractual.