Apprentice expectations

[brentp]

I am curious on how everyone bases apprentice wages. What are your expectations for a 1 yr, 2 yr, 3 yr...? Do you have tests based on the NEC?

I have been basing pay on attendance, workmanship & work ethic for many years. I think I should kick it up a notch and require a little more knowledge of the NEC. Electricians that can follow specific instructions from their foreman are a dime a dozen now days.

Anyway, I am thinking about basing things on our local apprenticeship school. If you don't make the effort to learn, no raise. Our company deals in commercial work only.

Any thoughts?

Brent

 

[TOOL_5150]

If you don't make the effort to learn, no raise.

I fully agree. If you get a job, and do JUST your job, then you get the pay you started out at - You worked for nothing more, so you get nothing more.

However, If you strive to make yourself better, more knowlegable, then in turn you become more important to the company thus, you do deserve an increase in pay.

Its just like a waiter/waitress... Thats their job, earning a tip requires more then just bringing food to the table then forgetting about me. If they are pleasant and keep my drink full, then they probably do deserve a tip.

Automatic raises are stupid IMO, raises need to be earned.

~Matt

 

[cpal]

I fully agree. If you get a job, and do JUST your job, then you get the pay you started out at - You worked for nothing more, so you get nothing more.

However, If you strive to make yourself better, more knowlegable, then in turn you become more important to the company thus, you do deserve an increase in pay.

Its just like a waiter/waitress... Thats their job, earning a tip requires more then just bringing food to the table then forgetting about me. If they are pleasant and keep my drink full, then they probably do deserve a tip.

Automatic raises are stupid IMO, raises need to be earned.

~Matt

I don't see a problem with automatic raises, based on some incentive such as attendance performance etc. but these things tend to become subjective . in the end if you have been doing it long enough you know who your good employees are and if they know a raise is coming that could set command climate and develope some loyalty to you as an individual.

Its a business decision one size does not fit all.

As for the OP helpers wages generally are subjective depending on the size of the company, affiliation, and the geo location. around here a Voc Grad could get 12-13 per Hr. maybe a little more "last Year" today 10 is a good deal.

 

[brentp]

I wasn't necessarily asking what a 2,3,4 yr apprentice's wage should be, but more along the lines of what you would EXPECT him to know.

 

[quogueelectric]

I wasn't necessarily asking what a 2,3,4 yr apprentice's wage should be, but more along the lines of what you would EXPECT him to know.

For me it goes by time in 5 yr apprenticeship. 1st yr 30%, 2nd 40%,3rd 50%,4th 60%,5th 70%. Expected is come to work on time , do what you are told , keep your mouth shut. Rescipe for success. You can be the know it all after your apprenticeship and not a day before. %s based on 45 per hr plus bennies.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I wasn't necessarily asking what a 2,3,4 yr apprentice's wage should be, but more along the lines of what you would EXPECT him to know.

1st Year:

Safety
Some calculations
Material
Beginning Theory
Beginning Code
Use of tools
Proper respect of those they work with and for
Proper respect of the customer


Attendence and other items such as that are not just for apprentiship, that should go without being said, it is hard to imagine it should be taught.
Respect should not have to be taught, but the "proper" respect and "pecking order" for jobs and such do need to be taught

 

[Twoskinsoneman]

For me it goes by time in 5 yr apprenticeship. 1st yr 30%, 2nd 40%,3rd 50%,4th 60%,5th 70%. Expected is come to work on time , do what you are told , keep your mouth shut. Rescipe for success. You can be the know it all after your apprenticeship and not a day before. %s based on 45 per hr plus bennies.

What are these percentages? Is this mean the percentage of a goal to have all knowledge and electrical skill?

Just out of curiosity (this is to everyone) what percentage do you consider yourself at?

 

[quogueelectric]

What are these percentages? Is this mean the percentage of a goal to have all knowledge and electrical skill?

Just out of curiosity (this is to everyone) what percentage do you consider yourself at?

These %s are a pay scale and are also attatched to basic apprentice minimum learning.
both theory and shop hands on to which a minimum grade must be maintained tested throughout the year as in the definition of apprenticeship as required by the state.
I personally consider myself at 1001% in both having the equipment at my command and the knowledge to execute any task given me.
You cant scare me I have 2 small children.
My task at hand is a dimming system for 2 theatres and I learn more about it every day because I love my job and want to be the best I can be every day.
This is why we are all here is to get better every day and be the best we can be.
Take pride in your work.

 

[brantmacga]

I think I should kick it up a notch and require a little more knowledge of the NEC. Electricians that can follow specific instructions from their foreman are a dime a dozen now days.

Yes, you should.


I have the uttermost disdain for employees/coworkers who cannot take the time to learn the codes most associated with their everyday work.

The time wasted repeating instructions and having to verify even the simple things were done "to code" can easily get out of hand.

 

[buldogg]

With the ever changing technology in our field today, we all have to be constantly learning new technologies just to keep up with new equipment. If an apprentice is willing to keep learning new things then that should count towards getting a raise.

 

[slick 50]

I don't see a problem with automatic raises, based on some incentive such as attendance performance etc. but these things tend to become subjective . in the end if you have been doing it long enough you know who your good employees are and if they know a raise is coming that could set command climate and develope some loyalty to you as an individual.

Its a business decision one size does not fit all.

As for the OP helpers wages generally are subjective depending on the size of the company, affiliation, and the geo location. around here a Voc Grad could get 12-13 per Hr. maybe a little more "last Year" today 10 is a good deal

.

That is way low. Gas is $3.00 a gallon. My daughter just graduated 11th grade and is working a the local McDonalds and started out at $8.00... Come on. Electrical work is intensive. I started out 13 years ago right out of high school at $8.50 and gas was only 0.89 a gallon. Now I am making $28.50 as a foreman without any schooling, just on job expeirence and kicking
butt...:smile: The worst part is most of these smaller companies want to pay $10 - $13 and won't even offer benifits. This will not work in 2009 unless you live at home all of your life and eat hot dogs and mac and cheese

 

[mivey]

Automatic raises are stupid IMO, raises need to be earned.

~Matt

But distinguish between a cost of living increase verses a raise. A COL increase should be automatic as it is not really a raise.

 

[slick 50]

But distinguish between a cost of living increase verses a raise. A COL increase should be automatic as it is not really a raise.

Exactly! All owners of businesses will charge more when the costs goes up for them such as material, fuel, labor, etc to compensate them but; they need to remember... the cost of living goes up for the employee also and they dont want to give a little. If these are good employees and are helping your family survive, raise the rate due to cost of living and give them a little reach around. Goverment employees get automatic cost of living raises, I wonder why thats necessary????? Because you NEED it to survive. We are no different than goverment workers.....ah yea we are goverment workers somewhere it the food chain without the fringe benifits.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

With the job market being so bad an employer will get away with offering dirt low wages. A new man in this field might find it even hard to get hired on. Yes wages might be as low as $10. It is assumed in time with schooling that they become faster and can do more. Base the pay on what they can do now and not on things like showing up. A man that is always late,sick,hung over, is of no value at any amount. If that new man has not learned anything more as time goes by then simply ditch him. Perhaps try testing them once a year. I have been handed men with 10 plus years behind them that were not much brighter than a 7 watt bulb. So raises would not be by number of years but by what they learned and speed.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

$10/hr x 2000hrs = $20,000 per year. What can a family man do with that after taxes.

I know that different areas of the country are less costly, but that amount of money is hard even for one who lives at home to subsist on.

 

[brentp]

Here is the curriculum that one of my guys has given me for his apprenticeship school.

1st yr:
Learn materials
OHM's law
Conduit bending
Parallel & series circuits
Pipe fill
Box fill
How to use the NEC
Basic print reading

2nd yr:
Size OCPD's
Motor protection
Calculate motor & trans loads
Size discos & starters
Trans & motor connections
Grounding & bonding
Services
More print reading

3rd yr:
More grounding & bonding
Advanced print reading
More motor theory
Motor control

4th yr:
Advanced motor control
NEC codes

Pretty impressive, huh?

I have approx 70+ apprentices on the job. Out of that 70+, five are in school. Something has to give.

Do any of you base pay on something like the apprenticeship program I've listed above? Or am I just trying to live a dream of true "electricians" on the jobsite? You can only play the cards you're dealt as far as the available work force.

Brent

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

$10/hr x 2000hrs = $20,000 per year. What can a family man do with that after taxes.

I know that different areas of the country are less costly, but that amount of money is hard even for one who lives at home to subsist on.

It's starting pay and here in Tampa about all they are worth, often not even worth that much. They hang in there and learn then wages go up. What often happens here is they last just under 90 days and let go. They then pretend to know more than they do and get someone to give them 50 cent or $1 more. They lie there way for first few years till they actually know enough to be of value. Was given a greeny once and actually took 8 hours with his help to do what i would done alone in 3. I have no idea why companies hire men like that. They seldom stay and just drag project hours down. Many are not worth even min. wage in beginning. Yes cost of living is cheaper here but you pay what a mans worth not what he needs to live. Do you want 2 men at $10 each that can't do the job or 1 at $20 that can ?

 

[CopperTone]

I base increases in pay on how much the apprentice has retained over the previous year, attendance, and tartiness. If they need to be shown over and over again how to perform the same task then they probably won't get a raise. But some guys retain everything and then start to anticipate the next step - those are the guys you give good raises to. Those are the guys that are making you money.
Guys that are late all the time and call out all the time - they don't care about their job.
I think everyone is different and is a case by case basis. Guys shouldn't be comparing pay with each other either - I can't prevent it but I do tell them to keep it to themselves.

 

[mivey]

Guys shouldn't be comparing pay with each other either - I can't prevent it but I do tell them to keep it to themselves.

That is going to happen. Just make sure they are comparing performance and experience, etc along with it.

If one guy makes $15/hr and another makes $17/hr, why not let them know why? While I don't think it is wise to let them know that John makes X and Jeff makes Y, a worker should know the wage range for his grade. This allows them to set goals. Publishing a pay scale chart with grades and having performance reviews might keep the guys from looking over each other's shoulder so much.

You may never stop X from thinking he does a better job than Y. They need to come to terms with the fact that their opinion does not matter when it comes to advancement. They need to find the criteria that will influence the boss's opinion.

Clearly defined criteria, goals, etc helps the worker. If the pay scale seems kind of arbitrary, then maybe it is. Many companies operate just that way. Suck-ups, family, etc. get the better rate, jobs...that is just they way most of the world is: Deal with it or move on.

Your better companies will have performance reviews with grades so the employee can know where they stand and will know what they need to do to move up. With some companies, the criteria for moving up is not so clear. With some, the criteria is clear but not followed. Aspire to be one of the good guys.

Also, don't get mad at the employee who does not want to move up. Some are perfectly content where they are. They just have other things that are more important to them. Nothing is wrong with that as we need all types to fill all the niches.

 

[brantmacga]

starting pay in my area is slightly above minimum wage; I'm talking less than a dollar.


pay for a j-man is $12.50-$15.00.


average pay for a good helper is $9.00.