Knob and Tube job 2!

[Charlie Bob]

Went to this place and examined it a little longer.
Lady forbids cutting on walls. No excuse>Husband is caught in between.
As a matter of fact the house would be what we call here a 1 1/2 story house. ( the middle of the upstairs is bedrooms and bathrooms, and is surrounded by attic space. can you picture it?) So between 1st. story and 2nd story is not accesible. you can see the K&T but you can remove or nothing.
So what about try to save as much as i can ,as long as is not damage. Join it with romex in a junction box and rewire what is possible.
Now if i do that.
-I will have to leave egc unconnected.
-Should i put GFCI breakers?
-I know by code i shoul replace receptacles with GFCI.
- I'm gonna have to install a new panel box where K&T is going to.

You all, i'm not trying to get away doing this short of standards. But believe it's either find alternatives or leave it alone. And i don't like to turn work down unless they want me to rigg the heck out of somethin. And then i tell them "i'm and electrician not a handyman":smile:

 

[al hildenbrand]

A story and a half is a lot easier to work than a full two story.

I trust there is access into both sides of the second floor rooms into the attics. Find a wall and drill down into it, go to the basement and drill up in the same place, drop a chain from above, and use a straightened coat hanger with a tiny hook on the end to get the chain from the basement. One name for it is sash chain:

That gets power and EGC up there. With careful thought about how it is framed you will be able to fish to all the first floor light locations, and only have to dicker on the positions of the switches.

 

[Sierrasparky]

You also might try that Glo stick they sell at the big box store. Not the Greenlee old style but the newer thin rod. There great. Very flexible...

 

[Charlie Bob]

thanks. i thought about using chain, and i have one of those sticks i guess i'll try them both. basically, this job requires a lot of thinking and examination firts right?

 

[480sparky]

You should still insist that making a hole here and there may be absolutely necessary. Sometimes, it just cannot be avoided.

 

[Charlie Bob]

i know 480sparky,believe me this job is stressing me out. this lady don,t understand. but she's the customer and i have to please her you kbnow?

 

[480sparky]

i know 480sparky,believe me this job is stressing me out. this lady don,t understand. but she's the customer and i have to please her you kbnow?

I wonder if she goes to buy lottery tickets, she demands that she receive only winning tickets.

 

[quogueelectric]

You should still insist that making a hole here and there may be absolutely necessary. Sometimes, it just cannot be avoided.

I just learned how to patch my own holes. It used to stress me out now it is a piece of cake. It sometimes upsets the carpenters to see an electrician that spackles. It is not a big deal once you learn how to do it.

 

[al hildenbrand]

this job requires a lot of thinking and examination firts right?

I call it zen and the voids of buildings.

Use the sticks to "feel" into the length of the voids.

Start in the basement to get the bearing beams and the directions of the joists.

Look at the outside roof for the ridges and their run. Look inside the attic for the second floor joist runs.

Assemble that into the skeleton of the framing.

Now, take advantage of the long spaces between the framing. Use a lot of wire.

Be still, you'll know what to do.

 

[Charlie Bob]

Crazy enough i finish sheetrock and install ceramic tile too. I consider myself pretty good at it but she seems to me the kind of customer that she'll tell exactly, wheather she see it or not, where your patches were, if you know what i mean. So if she don;t want them i won't have them.
Thanks Al i sure appreciate your tips.

 

[iMuse97]

I call it zen and the voids of buildings.


Be still, you'll know what to do.

This is cool; they used to say, work smarter, not harder, but you said it better. :smile:

 

[guitarsarge]

You also might try that Glo stick they sell at the big box store. Not the Greenlee old style but the newer thin rod. There great. Very flexible...

The sticks are very handy. You can easily find cross bracing and avoid them since there's no holes allowed. Just be sure to get the klein's and not the greenlee. I bought some greenlee sticks only to find that they are hollow and cannot be bent much without splintering and becoming useless. I got my $ back though.
The glosticks also come with two tip attachments: a hook and eye (like a sewing needle) and of course they all thread together which is nice for lone wolves...

 

[Charlie Bob]

i got the klein ones myself, although i was not aware of the problems with greenlee.

 

[e57]

I call it zen and the voids of buildings.

Use the sticks to "feel" into the length of the voids.

Start in the basement to get the bearing beams and the directions of the joists.

Look at the outside roof for the ridges and their run. Look inside the attic for the second floor joist runs.

Assemble that into the skeleton of the framing.

Now, take advantage of the long spaces between the framing. Use a lot of wire.

Be still, you'll know what to do.

Great describtion of the use of imagination.

Had a customer walk outside to me and ask if I was on the clock out there with my coffee cup in hand - yep "I'm visualizing the framing of your house - in much the same way I approach troubleshooting, 'if I wired your house - how would I wire it' but 'If I framed your house how would I have built it' - Not sure she bought that - but she was impressed when I got a 2/3 MC through both of the condos below her without holes. (Round stairway - square rooms and a void zig-zagging throught the framing for them - dropped a plum-bob down it - gaping holes in her place though.)

 

[ElectricianJeff]

I have had luck coming from the basement into a piece of pvc run up through an inside corner of a closet in older homes. Often times in an older home you will find a spot in the wierd shaped closets that contain/hide the flu where this will work.

 

[mivey]

...drop a chain from above...sash chain:

I have always used jack chain (the round links with the twist).

 

[al hildenbrand]

I have always used jack chain (the round links with the twist).

That's a testament to your skill in lining up the holes for an easy pull.

I, on the other hand, tend to pull by pinch points, occasionally, and really have to pull hard. The Jack Chain links aren't closed, and I've found I can pull them open. A sash chain requires actually breaking metal for a link to fail, which allows me the "yank" that I sometimes need.

 

[frankft2000]

Chain works well for walls without insulation, but if they are insulated you basically need the rods.

 

[mivey]

closed loop

closed loop

That's a testament to your skill in lining up the holes for an easy pull.

I, on the other hand, tend to pull by pinch points, occasionally, and really have to pull hard. The Jack Chain links aren't closed, and I've found I can pull them open. A sash chain requires actually breaking metal for a link to fail, which allows me the "yank" that I sometimes need.

Well, I used to use the open link: http://www.perfectionchain.com/singlejack.html But the stuff I use now looks more like a solid jack chain (actually a lay-flat twisted loop) and looks like this and does not kink and is good for hundreds of pounds:
http://turnerseymour.thomasnet.com/.../twist-link-chain-coil?&plpver=1001&forward=1

For most fishing, you can find this twisted open link at most hardware stores: http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=131905-273-C0712017&lpage=none It is not as strong (29 lb rating ~ 100 lb break) but only has a 3/32" wire and is very "nimble". The small (mason) line will not take much more than 150 or so lbs anyway (I can put my weigh into it and break it - yeah that's a little more than 150 lbs).

I usually broke the string before I opened a jack chain link. That was with a regular nylon string-probably an abrasion problem or failure mode associated with the twist. Now I used a braided nylon with the closed links and it is pretty tough-I also have an up-sized roll of the braided for when I want to lean into it with the closed links.

Chain works well for walls without insulation, but if they are insulated you basically need the rods.

No doubt. Sometimes you have to get the coat hangers because you don't have room to make the turn with the rods. Plastic coat hangers are making it tough to find the old coat hangers-we still get wire ones from the cleaners but they are thin wire.