Hot tub

[j rae]

I have a hot tub on a free standing deck about 15ft. From the house. I mounted a 2pole g.f.c.i. Enclouser on the deck. Should i drive a ground rod and should i treat this as a sub panel and have the ground and neutral separate??? Thanks

 

[raider1]

I would say yes, as the hot tub meets the definition of a structure. 250.32(A) would require a grounding electrode.

Chris

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think the question is if this is one branch circuit or not. If it is only one then you are good to go. If the panel has more spaces then one then a rod is needed. 250.32 (A) exeption

 

[raider1]

I think the question is if this is one branch circuit or not. If it is only one then you are good to go. If the panel has more spaces then one then a rod is needed. 250.32 (A) exeption

The the conductors between the dwelling and the 2 pole GFCI breaker in the hot tub disconnect would constitute a feeder and not a branch circuit and therefore you would need to have a grounding electrode system in accordance with 250.32(A).

Chris

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think in my opinion this would be coverd in the exeption. I have a iilistrated NEC handbook by the same people of the NEC and it shows what J rae is speaking of. Because of this I think that was the intent of the rule.
The breaker is serving as a disconnect and GFCI protection.

 

[raider1]

I think in my opinion this would be coverd in the exeption. I have a iilistrated NEC handbook by the same people of the NEC and it shows what J rae is speaking of. Because of this I think that was the intent of the rule.
The breaker is serving as a disconnect and GFCI protection.

The exception applys to a single branch circuit. A branch circuit is defined as "The circuit conductors between the final overcurrent device protecting the circuit and the outlet(s)."

The GFCI breaker would be the final overcurrent device so the branch circuit doesn't start until after the GFCI breaker. The conductors from the dewlling to the GFCI breaker would be a feeder and not a branch circuit. Here is the definition of feeder "All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device."

Chris

 

[suemarkp]

Whether this is a feeder or branch circuit seems to cause debates. To me, if the tub is the only thing connect to this panel, its a branch circuit. The GFCI is just supplemental protection and the circuit is not acting as a feeder.

If you do consider this a feeder, was it wired per NEC 680.25 (insulated equipment ground)?

 

[Sierrasparky]

Repsectfully i realize all that.
however the NEC Handbook Illistrates the point exactly as I have made my point and allows it. It illistrates a single breaker in a panel on a remote building. The GFCI is a single breaker.
I realize people do make mistakes. This illustration could be one.
If you pulled the GFCI out and put in a switch then it would be a Branch circuit as you state. and installed the GFCI in the panel ahead. this would be ok? There is no change in fault issues.
Shall I scan the illistration for you?

 

[raider1]

If you do consider this a feeder, was it wired per NEC 680.25 (insulated equipment ground)?

The same requirement exists for a branch circuit, see 680.21(A)(1). 680.21(A)(4) would not apply due to this being outside.

To me, if the tub is the only thing connect to this panel, its a branch circuit.

How does that change the definition of a feeder? There is nothing in the definition of feeder that requires the feeder to supply multiple overcurrent devices or loads.

Chris

 

[raider1]

however the NEC Handbook Illistrates the point exactly as I have made my point and allows it. It illistrates a single breaker in a panel on a remote building. The GFCI is a single breaker.

I have the 2008 NEC handbook and do see where this illustration could be construed to show a breaker at the load. The problem that I have with that illustration is that they are intermixing symbols, in the panel you see a real world depiction of a breaker feeding this remote building but at the building you see a schematical representation of an overcurrent device. As you are probably already aware the illustrations in the handbook are not enforcable as code.

I realize people do make mistakes. This illustration could be one.

I feel that in this case the illustration contains a mistake.

If you pulled the GFCI out and put in a switch then it would be a Branch circuit as you state. and installed the GFCI in the panel ahead. this would be ok?

Yes, that would meet the exception in 250.32(A).

I am just stating what the code says in regards to this installation.

Chris

 

[Sierrasparky]

It's interesting on how the iilustrator went out of their way to show a panel and breaker or was their thinking it is a switch?

 

[raider1]

It's interesting on how the iilustrator went out of their way to show a panel and breaker or was their thinking it is a switch?

A disconnecting means is required at the remote building/structure so what is being illustrated could very well be just a switch.

Chris

 

[SEO]

I would say yes, as the hot tub meets the definition of a structure.

Chris

Chris do you mean that the hot tub meets the definition of a structure or do you mean that the free standing deck meets the definition of a structure?

 

[gordon123]

What would be the difference between hot tub disconnect and a/c disconnect. No rod required for a/c.

 

[raider1]

Chris do you mean that the hot tub meets the definition of a structure or do you mean that the free standing deck meets the definition of a structure?

Either one would meet the definition of a structure from the NEC.

Chris

 

[raider1]

What would be the difference between hot tub disconnect and a/c disconnect. No rod required for a/c.

The hot tub and disconnect in the original post was 15 feet from the home. Typically an A/C unit disconnect is installed on the home itself and not on a detached structure.

The requirement for a grounding electrode in this situation would be 250.32(A) for a detached structure.

Chris