Grounding conductor

[D-Nice]

I have been told by some inspectors that bonding the grounding terminal to the neutral terminal on a receptacle is acceptable if there is no ground wire. Is this in fact true? Doesnt seem too legit to me...

 

[augie47]

not acceptable. you might ask the inspectors to expalin 250.24(A)(5)

 

[chris kennedy]

not acceptable. you might ask the inspectors to expalin 250.24(A)(5)

if there is no ground wire.

Might also show him 406.3(D)(3).

 

[LarryFine]

They're the ones who are supposed to prevent such things, not recommend them! Oy vey! :roll:

 

[SEO]

Larry the OP didn't say that they were electrical inspectors.:roll:

 

[mpd]

I have been told by some inspectors that bonding the grounding terminal to the neutral terminal on a receptacle is acceptable if there is no ground wire. Is this in fact true? Doesnt seem too legit to me...

NEVER EVER, look at 250.130 & 250.142 (B), what type of inspector gave you this advice hopefully not electrical

 

[erickench]

I have been told by some inspectors that bonding the grounding terminal to the neutral terminal on a receptacle is acceptable if there is no ground wire. Is this in fact true? Doesnt seem too legit to me...

If there is no ground wire and no continuous metal raceway then there is no effective fault current path. If you have a metal box with an old non-metallic cable then you're going to have problem. A hot wire touches the box and it will become energized. The NEC does'nt allow it but I think the following can be regarded as true: You can't use the ground as a neutral but you can use the neutral as a ground. Here's a link to an article that Mike Holt wrote. There's a section that pertains to using the neutral as an effective ground path.

http://www.mikeholt.com/mojonewsarchive/GB-HTML/HTML/Grounding-versus-Bonding-Part-5-of-12~20050304.php

 

[LarryFine]

The NEC does'nt allow it but I think the following can be regarded as true: You can't use the ground as a neutral but you can use the neutral as a ground. Here's a link to an article that Mike Holt wrote. There's a section that pertains to using the neutral as an effective ground path.

In a feeder to a detached building, sure, just like we used to be able to do on major appliances. Both allowances are disappearing.

To a 120v receptacle, never.

 

[erickench]

In a feeder to a detached building, sure, just like we used to be able to do on major appliances. Both allowances are disappearing.

To a 120v receptacle, never.

Of course the NEC does'nt allow it. But if the inspector is giving him the OK to use the neutral as a ground then it should'nt be a problem. As long as there is no existing ground wire and no continuous metal raceway.

 

[480sparky]

Of course the NEC does'nt allow it. But if the inspector is giving him the OK to use the neutral as a ground then it should'nt be a problem. .........

Since when can in inspector overrule the NEC?

 

[LarryFine]

Of course the NEC does'nt allow it. But if the inspector is giving him the OK to use the neutral as a ground then it should'nt be a problem. As long as there is no existing ground wire and no continuous metal raceway.

I still disagree. Getting an OK from the inspector doesn't change why it shouldn't be done.

 

[roger]

Just because an inspector is clueless does not relieve a licensed contractor from liabilities associated with imprpopoer installations.


As an aside, this inspectors recommendation should be reported to the AHJ.

Roger

 

[erickench]

Since when can in inspector overrule the NEC?

I'll give you an example. I worked for the NYC Transit for 23 years. We never grounded the neutral to the earth because of the electrolysis caused by the stray earth currents. The maintenance people would send a supervisor to write the punchlist. That particular item was never found on any punchlist even though the NEC required it.

 

[LarryFine]

That particular item was never found on any punchlist even though the NEC required it.

Are you saying they saw it and opted to overlook it, or merely neglectfully overlooked it?

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Are you saying they saw it and opted to overlook it, or merely neglectfully overlooked it?

...or they just did not understand it.

It is not permitted, even if your inspector tells you it is okay.
The answer to this is:
EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION...if that does not work- Fire him.

 

[mivey]

I also would like D-Nice to reveal the inspector type.

erickench: 20 lashes with a wet noodle. You should know better.

 

[erickench]

I am telling you that the Transit Authority does not ground the neutral. I have personally served as a construction inspector on many projects. The TA does not use grounding electrodes because of the electrolysis problem. The trains operate on DC propulsion.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

I am telling you that the Transit Authority does not ground the neutral. I have personally served as a construction inspector on many projects. The TA does not use grounding electrodes because of the electrolysis problem. The trains operate on DC propulsion.

I am not aware of any residential dwellings that operate on a system other than AC.

 

[erickench]

Well this is not residential. I have looked at hundreds of drawings and never once did I see a GEC. The TA uses both AC and DC for different systems. It seems that corrosion is a far bigger problem then lightning striking the system. Then again half the stations are underground while the others are above ground. Lightning would not be able to strike these underground systems. We did'nt even use surge/lightning arrestors.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Eric,
Are you saying the TA is using an ungrounded system, with line to neutral loads?
As far as the corrosion problem, that is a function of the DC system, not the AC system. Is the DC system also an ungrounded system?