GFI outlet for Dialysis Water Softener

[wyattlewis]

Within a dialysis central equipment R.O. equipment room, we are experiencing nuisance GFI tripping on the outlet for the water softener. Does this application require a GFI outlet, or can we get rid of it.

The GFI outlet is 5' 0" above the floor. We considered this a wet location because of the potential to become wet. However, the hospital is requesting we remove this GFI and replace it with a normal receptacle. The outlet is 100% not getting wet and this area is not necessarily deemed a wet location.

could anyone help shed some insight?

 

[roger]

IMO you can get rid of it, I don't see where 517.20(A) nor 210.8(B) require GFCI's in this location.

As a last resort, could the water softener be hard wired?


Roger

 

[glene77is]

Roger,
Having been responsible for a university hospital before,
I recall the use of isolation transformers.
IYO, how might this precaution be a concern in the OP's scenario?
:smile:

 

[cadpoint]

How does one get by 517.17(A), where critical care area is listed and complimented by 517.33 Criticial Branch where this is defined?

Is the circuit isolated at point of use ? I meggar the circuit!

 

[roger]

Roger,
Having been responsible for a university hospital before,
I recall the use of isolation transformers.
IYO, how might this precaution be a concern in the OP's scenario?
:smile:

If this were a patient care or proceedure area an Isolated Power System could be used, but it is uneccessary in this location. Isolated Power Systems are expensive and not really practical for general use areas

How does one get by 517.17(A),

This is a branch circuit, 517.17 is talking about the service and feeders.

where critical care area is listed and complimented by 517.33 Criticial Branch where this is defined?

It wouldn't matter if this receptacle was on the Critical Branch or not, it would not need to be GFCI protected.

Roger

 

[winnie]

I'd suggest that this is not nuisance tripping. I suspect that there is _real_ current leakage and that the GFCI is doing its job and tripping on this leakage. It may be that this leakage is so low that the water softener will _function_ on a non-protected receptacle, and if the grounding is good enough then this low leakage won't result in a shock, but any leakage at all is an indication that something has failed or is starting to fail.

Even if the GFCI is not required at this location, the equipment itself should be checked for the insulation failure.

A hospital should have the resources available to locate leakage in equipment; they are required to check electrical devices that come in contact with patients for electrical leakage.

-Jon

 

[76nemo]

I'd suggest that this is not nuisance tripping. I suspect that there is _real_ current leakage and that the GFCI is doing its job and tripping on this leakage. It may be that this leakage is so low that the water softener will _function_ on a non-protected receptacle, and if the grounding is good enough then this low leakage won't result in a shock, but any leakage at all is an indication that something has failed or is starting to fail.

Even if the GFCI is not required at this location, the equipment itself should be checked for the insulation failure.

A hospital should have the resources available to locate leakage in equipment; they are required to check electrical devices that come in contact with patients for electrical leakage.

-Jon

Agreed. Any health care equipment I have ever serviced was required to be hi-potted and was restricted to a couple of different regulations, the FDA being one of them, which I find funny. The FDA rep couldn't tell you electrical theory from a hole in their shoe, but they have the final say in QA:roll:

 

[ELA]

Some leakage is allowed

Some leakage is allowed

I disagree that "any leakage at all is an indication that something has or is failing".

It is acceptable to temporarily disconnect components such as capacitors and Movs between line and ground when performing manufacturing testing, prior to Hi-potting, if it is known they will cause the test to fail.

Lots of equipment contain EMI filters with common mode caps to ground. These will always leak some current at 60hz to ground. This is why it is very important not to lift the ground pin on such equipment. With the ground pin lifted a metal case could raise to ~60v (capacitive voltage divider).

I am not saying that there is not a real leakage issue in this case, just pointing out that some leakage can be expected.

A actual measurement of the leakage current is a helpful bit of information to know.

 

[76nemo]

I disagree that "any leakage at all is an indication that something has or is failing".

It is acceptable to temporarily disconnect components such as capacitors and Movs between line and ground when performing manufacturing testing, prior to Hi-potting, if it is known they will cause the test to fail.

Lots of equipment contain EMI filters with common mode caps to ground. These will always leak some current at 60hz to ground. This is why it is very important not to lift the ground pin on such equipment. With the ground pin lifted a metal case could raise to ~60v (capacitive voltage divider).

I am not saying that there is not a real leakage issue in this case, just pointing out that some leakage can be expected.

A actual measurement of the leakage current is a helpful bit of information to know.

As you state, we had acceptable ranges where the engineering of the devices stated so. We never took any part of the circuitry out, it was strictly line measurement to a calibrated device.

 

[brantmacga]

is it a 120v water softener?

All the ones i've seen had a transformer built-in or it was a wall-wart type plug.

 

[glene77is]

Quote:
Even if the GFCI is not required at this location, the equipment itself should be checked for the insulation failure.
A hospital should have the resources available to locate leakage in equipment; they are required to check electrical devices that come in contact with patients for electrical leakage.
EndQuote:

Winnie,

Right on! This should be checked.

Could there be 'splash-out' of ionized liquid causing leakage,
or a pressure reliefe via a connector to a drain.

Hospitals must comply with JACH requirements,
which includes leakage testing. Our criteria was 10 microAmps.

:smile:

 

[roger]

Hospitals must comply with JACH requirements,
which includes leakage testing. Our criteria was 10 microAmps.

:smile:

Not true, hospitals do not have to be JACHO accredited, that is actually a choice. The bottom line is, this water softner may or may not even have to be "medical" equipment. If you go into a hospital kitchens there is no "listed for health care" cooking equipment even though they are feeding patients, the equipment is the same as is used in many commercial applications.

Regardless, the water softener does not come into contact with patients.

The testing criteria for patient care rooms is in chapter 4 of NFPA 99.

Roger

 

[glene77is]

Roger,
Good point.
:smile: