debate on opening/closing power Breakers

[brother]

its my understanding that so long as the 'doors' are closed that you do not need an arc flash suit to open and close a power breaker. Is this not correct?? Remember we are NOT racking out the breaker, only turning power on and off

 

[StephenSDH]

First and foremost the NFPA 70E is not a requirement but should be followed. OSHA does not require companies to follow the 70E but you must safety work on electrical equipment.

Look at NFPA Table 130.7. Generally it is class 0 if the doors are all closed.

NFPA 70E is viewable online
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/browser?title=/NFPASTD/70E09

I attached a picture of class 0 requirements.

 

[ohmhead]

its my understanding that so long as the 'doors' are closed that you do not need an arc flash suit to open and close a power breaker. Is this not correct?? Remember we are NOT racking out the breaker, only turning power on and off

Well yes heres why they manufacture safe gear its kinda like arc resistant gear the arc stays inside .

We turn them on all the time without a suit or any protection read your manual with gear today it explains what you may have but most are safe ...http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt195/stringking/ADVANCE_720.jpg

 

[celtic]

First and foremost the NFPA 70E is not a requirement but should be followed. OSHA does not require companies to follow the 70E but you must safety work on electrical equipment.

I don't know about that...there is a general duty clause in OSHA reg's [1970.5; ] that leads one to believe that 70E must be followed.


http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=INTERPRETATIONS&p_id=24617

 

[Buck Parrish]

What voltage are we talking?

 

[eric9822]

Check the tables if no study has been done. There are instances where PPE is required even when the doors are closed.

 

[quogueelectric]

This post made me think of the people killed at work in the last 25 yrs who I knew and worked with 4 of them.
Some Who were close friends and apprentices who I had trained or worked with in the last 25 years of commercial/ indstrial work. Thier stories are very simmilar.
One didnt have his seatbelt on and got ejected head first from the back seat returning from lunch into an oak tree.
Annother had a PSEG xformer blow up on him and sent a bolt through his head he had about as much hv training as my neighbors cat.
Annother was preocupied on the aniversary of his daughters death changing a tire on the Long Island expressway working 277v lighting hot in a Sears store.
Another sad story of families without a father/ husband /brother /son where a simple change could have meant the difference between life and death.
Wear the ppe if available and dont think twice about it.
Nothing worse than a cool cat in the burn unit.Not too cool when they are debrieding a 3rd degree burn narcotics can only do so much and Dead is dead. You will wish you were dead as they are scraping the burn down to the healthy tissue.

 

[mxstar211]

This post made me think of the people killed at work in the last 25 yrs who I knew and worked with 4 of them.
Some Who were close friends and apprentices who I had trained or worked with in the last 25 years of commercial/ indstrial work. Thier stories are very simmilar.
One didnt have his seatbelt on and got ejected head first from the back seat returning from lunch into an oak tree.
Annother had a PSEG xformer blow up on him and sent a bolt through his head he had about as much hv training as my neighbors cat.
Annother was preocupied on the aniversary of his daughters death changing a tire on the Long Island expressway working 277v lighting hot in a Sears store.
Another sad story of families without a father/ husband /brother /son where a simple change could have meant the difference between life and death.
Wear the ppe if available and dont think twice about it.
Nothing worse than a cool cat in the burn unit.Not too cool when they are debrieding a 3rd degree burn narcotics can only do so much and Dead is dead. You will wish you were dead as they are scraping the burn down to the healthy tissue.

Wow!!! I could not agree with you more. That is an awesome post, and hopefully it will get a some people to start wearing the proper ppe. I think the big problem with electricians is we think we are smarter than everyone and the ppe isn't a big deal, and it will never happen to us. I have seen the arc flash videos, and I can tell you I do not want anything to do with going to a burn unit.

 

[nakulak]

wow, I'm impressed that your neighbor's cat has HV training. We are looking for someone who has that kind of training, especially one that will work for (kibbles and bits). Do you know if he's working ?

 

[TxEngr]

I attended a webcast in which a gentlemen from GE was the presenter. In it he said that if the doors are closed, then the arc flash calculations are no longer the 'rule' and that the tables should be used. When I read the code, I can see his position and actually agree with him. So following the code with HC0 for opening/closing switches on 480V buckets is allowed if the person is qualified for that task, e.g. they've had training on how to perform this operation safely.

This is particularly important in plants where operators are expected to open and close switches for lockout on their machinery. If HC2 gear were required, it would significantly hamper their operations with very little increase in safety.

TxEngr

 

[wawireguy]

Can you make sure there won't be a arc flash? Such as having downstream breakers closed and bringing loads up gradually? This is a area that I'm unsure on. Whether or not you should be turning mains on with large loads on them. Something tells me that it's a bad idea.. I'm not in charge of making those decisions yet but I should know this..

 

[ohmhead]

Well read this http://www.goinfrared.com/media/2004-022-Holliday-FINAL.pdf

 

[kenq]

Yeah,

Safety Rule #1: Everyone IS going to go home, to their families, at the end of the shift. PERIOD>


No Crap, no shortcuts, PERIOD.

My brother was killed, 14KV, on the job, Super was in a hurry....

Now I say:You're on schedule, Good For You, GFY, same acronym as Go F Yourself. It's done when WE ALL say it's done. Otherwise DO NOT ASK.


No shortcuts, ever again......



KEN

 

[ron]

Ventilation openings make it that some company policies require PPE as if the door was open.

 

[LarryFine]

Yeah,

Safety Rule #1: Everyone IS going to go home, to their families, at the end of the shift. PERIOD>


No Crap, no shortcuts, PERIOD.

My brother was killed, 14KV, on the job, Super was in a hurry....

Now I say:You're on schedule, Good For You, GFY, same acronym as Go F Yourself. It's done when WE ALL say it's done. Otherwise DO NOT ASK.


No shortcuts, ever again......

Oh, don't be shy. Tell us how you really feel.




Seriously, sorry for your loss, and you're right: there is no excuse.

Welcome to the forum!

 

[zog]

its my understanding that so long as the 'doors' are closed that you do not need an arc flash suit to open and close a power breaker. Is this not correct?? Remember we are NOT racking out the breaker, only turning power on and off

Depends if you are using the tables or have done an analysis, and what class breaker and if you can even use the tables. Doors closed offers no protection unless it is arc rated switchgear, they may have vents, or if not the pressure build up from the arc and the failure of the doors can cause even higher hazard lavels in certian senarios. IEEE is doing more testing on this as we speak so until those results are out you need to either wear the PPE from the tables or analysis or operate the breakers from outside the arc flash boundary.

 

[kenq]

Thank You Larry,


I'm only a floater here, I came looking for answer, found it by accident,and got great info.And just bumped into this thread.


I might float around a bit, but I don't have a lot of time to spend in these boards.....

Anyway........


The bigger the job, the closer they get to substanial completion, the Safety Officer disappears.

I just don't do it anymore......

There is only one person in the world who be allowed to walk my girls down the aisle.....

That is ME.....

Even if I work at McDonalds......


So NO, all you guys, please don't do it. It's only for THEIR money.

Yeah, I know, it's kinda preaching.....



Take it slow out there, and be safe,



KEN

 

[brother]

thanks for the responses. Looks like we will be wearing the Arc Flash suit when turning on/off the breaker.

Its been interesting learning more about this NFPA 70e. Its sad it takes someone dieing before they make adjustments. kenq , sorry about your loss.

I know for myself, I have been using my gloves more often when testing for voltages in mcc's etc.