Metal Window Frame Bonding

[Aledrell]

I just got this inspection report from a home inspector representing a buyer on a home. On of his issues states that there is no bond evident on metal window frames. Now I was made to bond a metal fence on time because it was close to a pool. I bonded with pool rebarb. This house is existing, windows could be bonded beneath stucco? What is the distance to the pool edge necessary for this to be a requirement? What could I bond these to? the brass conduit for the light? or all the way back to panel? There is pool decking everywhere so going underground is not so easy. Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[macmikeman]

What year was the pool installed and what version of the NEC is your area on. 98% chance the window frames do not need to be bonded even if they are within 5' of the pool. Bonding back to the panel is never required for the equal potential bonding grid unless you live someplace where they are unable to read the code well.

 

[radiopet]

What year was the pool installed and what version of the NEC is your area on. 98% chance the window frames do not need to be bonded even if they are within 5' of the pool. Bonding back to the panel is never required for the equal potential bonding grid unless you live someplace where they are unable to read the code well.

Agreed except to the point of the window frame portion of the statement. It appears that the NEC Handbook has been saying this for years....

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal-sheathed cables and raceways,
metal piping, and all fixed metal parts shall be bonded.
The metal parts required to be bonded per 680.26(B) include all metal parts of
electrical equipment associated with the water-circulating system of the pool, all metal
parts of the pool structure, and all fixed metal parts, which include conduit and piping,
metal door frames, and metal window frames, within 5 ft of the inside walls of the
pool and not separated by a permanent barrier. Other examples of fixed metal parts
covered by this requirement include metal fences and metal awnings. The bonding of
these parts can be accomplished by one or more of the following methods using a solid
8 AWG or larger, insulated, covered, or bare copper conductor. See Exhibit 680.13.
Brass or other corrosion-resistant metal conduit can also be used as a bonding
conductor for connecting metal parts together.
? Connecting the parts directly to each other in series or parallel configurations
? Connecting the parts to the unencapsulated structural metal forming the shell of a
conductive pool or connecting the parts to a copper conductor grid system used
around the contour of a conductive pool shell
? Connecting the parts together using the pool shell constructed of bolted or welded
steel as a common connection point. See Exhibit 680.13
? Connecting the parts to the perimeter bonding grid consisting of either structural
reinforcing steel (re-bar or welded wire mesh) or a solid 8 AWG bare copper
conductor encircling the perimeter of the pool

 

[macmikeman]

680.26 for Pool bonding 2005 NEC (we aren't modern here yet). Way I read it unless them windows are part of the pool structure, or part of the wiring equipment of the pool then you are not required. I'm sure others may not see it that way. (There are some pools in Waikiki that have windows built into the pool itself and a below grade (pun) liquer bar on the other side of the window, so I guess that those window frames need bonding.....)

 

[macmikeman]

Handbook is not codebook.

 

[macmikeman]

Just so we are all on the same page, the underlined portion of Mr. Abernathy's post is not in the 2008 NEC. It ma very well be in the Handbook. What might be good is to have another section of the forum labeled NEC Handbook and do alternate posting there.

 

[radiopet]

Handbook is not codebook.

No but their opinion has more weight than most of us in those respects.

These authors do garner some respect and it is published by the NFPA.

Mark W. Earley, P.E.
Editor-in-Chief
Jeffrey S. Sargent
Managing Editor
Joseph V. Sheehan, P.E.
Editor
E. William Buss, P.E.
Editor

 

[Aledrell]

So does it have to be with in 5ft? House was built in 2005 as track build, wuold bonding this to the brass conduit for the pool light be acceptable?

 

[radiopet]

Just so we are all on the same page, the underlined portion of Mr. Abernathy's post is not in the 2008 NEC. It ma very well be in the Handbook. What might be good is to have another section of the forum labeled NEC Handbook and do alternate posting there.

While the verbiage is not in the NEC the way it is written in the Handbook. I think many can argue their intent even if we dont always agree on it.

(7) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metalsheathed
cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed
metal parts shall be bonded.
Exception No. 1: Those separated from the pool by a permanent
barrier shall not be required to be bonded.
Exception No. 2: Those greater than 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally
of the inside walls of the pool shall not be required to
be bonded.
Exception No. 3: Those greater than 3.7 m (12 ft) measured
vertically above the maximum water level of the pool,
or as measured vertically above any observation stands,
towers, or platforms, or any diving structures, shall not be
required to be bonded.

With that said..."Mr. Abernathy" gave you a version of what the NECH says and what many people believe. I personally feel the bonding of a metal window frame which is installed on a wood framed house for the most part would be pointless......but what is written is what is written and if the editor and chiefs and Senior NFPA Engineers want to get it wrong...for be it for me to argue against their position. I have my own positions, you asked what the NEC says and thats what I posted.

 

[radiopet]

680.26 for Pool bonding 2005 NEC (we aren't modern here yet). Way I read it unless them windows are part of the pool structure, or part of the wiring equipment of the pool then you are not required. I'm sure others may not see it that way. (There are some pools in Waikiki that have windows built into the pool itself and a below grade (pun) liquer bar on the other side of the window, so I guess that those window frames need bonding.....)

And so are you saying that if their was a pipe on the side of the dwelling with an antenna on it and the pipe itself was less than 5' from the pool that it would not need bonding too because it is not part of the pool structure, wiring equipment or the pool in general?

Now again personally...I think the connection to the sliding door frame or window frame in this image is pointless...but alas I have no say on the intent portion of the way it is given in the NEC. I can only enforce it the way we interpret it in the area where I have the say on the interpretation.

 

[Aledrell]

The interesting debate is just confusing me more. Is it safe to say that the house built in 2005 probably under 2003 code or older was built to code at the time the home was built therefor the windows don't need to be bonded?

 

[ItsHot]

You're going to have to screw lugs to the window frames!:grin:

 

[radiopet]

The interesting debate is just confusing me more. Is it safe to say that the house built in 2005 probably under 2003 code or older was built to code at the time the home was built therefor the windows don't need to be bonded?

If you are under the 2002 NEC ( not the 2003 ) then here is what the NEC said. Again, I have to say, contact your local AHJ and see what their interpretation is as they are the ones who will have to give the approval in the end.

(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metalsheathed
cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed
metal parts except those separated from the pool by a permanent
barrier shall be bonded that are within the following
distances of the pool:
(1) Within 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally of the inside walls of
the pool
(2) Within 3.7 m (12 ft) measured vertically above the
maximum water level of the pool, or any observation
stands, towers, or platforms, or any diving structures

I think the argument stems from the term "equipment" and if they mean only equipment associated with the pool itself or all metal equipment in general. So here is the definition of equipment in the code....not the handbook.

Equipment. A general term including material, fittings, devices,
appliances, luminaires (fixtures), apparatus, and the
like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical
installation.

The argument portion has always ( atleast in my mind ) been the last part of that definition. So much so that I believe Mr. Holt has removed the connection to the metal window frame and metal door frame in his latest version of the image posted earlier....but you really need to see what your local AHJ says for the final call.

 

[buldogg]

If you are under the 2002 NEC ( not the 2003 ) then here is what the NEC said. Again, I have to say, contact your local AHJ and see what their interpretation is as they are the ones who will have to give the approval in the end.

(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metalsheathed
cables and raceways, metal piping, and all fixed
metal parts except those separated from the pool by a permanent
barrier shall be bonded that are within the following
distances of the pool:
(1) Within 1.5 m (5 ft) horizontally of the inside walls of
the pool
(2) Within 3.7 m (12 ft) measured vertically above the
maximum water level of the pool, or any observation
stands, towers, or platforms, or any diving structures

I think the argument stems from the term "equipment" and if they mean only equipment associated with the pool itself or all metal equipment in general. So here is the definition of equipment in the code....not the handbook.

Equipment. A general term including material, fittings, devices,
appliances, luminaires (fixtures), apparatus, and the
like used as a part of, or in connection with, an electrical
installation.

The argument portion has always ( atleast in my mind ) been the last part of that definition. So much so that I believe Mr. Holt has removed the connection to the metal window frame and metal door frame in his latest version of the image posted earlier....but you really need to see what your local AHJ says for the final call.

Best to contact your local AHJ and get their perspective

 

[radiopet]

Best to contact your local AHJ and get their perspective

Yep.....Agreed...and this is my 1,000th post...lol

 

[Aledrell]

Thank you for the info. I am going to make sure the windows are within 5ft of the pool 5'1'', I'm not bonding anything. 8awg bonded to the window frame to the brass conduit which is bonded to the shell of the pool better be good enough, I think it's all a bit of overkill.

 

[radiopet]

Thank you for the info. I am going to make sure the windows are within 5ft of the pool 5'1'', I'm not bonding anything. 8awg bonded to the window frame to the brass conduit which is bonded to the shell of the pool better be good enough, I think it's all a bit of overkill.

Honestly... I would ask your local AHJ first before you went into all that as they may see if differently and not require anything.

 

[macmikeman]

....but what is written is what is written and if the editor and chiefs and Senior NFPA Engineers want to get it wrong...for be it for me to argue against their position. I have my own positions, you asked what the NEC says and thats what I posted.

As I stated above, the NEC does not contain what you posted, the associated handbook is what states what you posted. Now I am not about to get on any position about what I think or feel about the handbook, I will say that the industry expert authors that you mentioned who having good access to making the revisions to code in the first place, if they think the words doorframe and window frame belong in 680.26, they ought to submit to make certain it goes in there. Until that happens, what is in the handbook is not law, and is subject to interpretation and misinterpretation as well, either by readers or authors. As for Mr. Holt removing the bond attachment to the window frame in the drawing, I also feel that that is a good idea, as it is not included in the NEC.

For all I would know, traffic police handbooks may very well state that green automobiles are usually the ones concealing contraban, but until the state law is changed to outlaw green (I picked that color on purpose, kudos and megaditto's to Rush), green automobiles are perfectly legal....... See my point??

 

[radiopet]

As I stated above, the NEC does not contain what you posted, the associated handbook is what states what you posted. Now I am not about to get on any position about what I think or feel about the handbook, I will say that the industry expert authors that you mentioned who having good access to making the revisions to code in the first place, if they think the words doorframe and window frame belong in 680.26, they ought to submit to make certain it goes in there. Until that happens, what is in the handbook is not law, and is subject to interpretation and misinterpretation as well, either by readers or authors. As for Mr. Holt removing the bond attachment to the window frame in the drawing, I also feel that that is a good idea, as it is not included in the NEC.

For all I would know, traffic police handbooks may very well state that green automobiles are usually the ones concealing contraban, but until the state law is changed to outlaw green (I picked that color on purpose, kudos and megaditto's to Rush), green automobiles are perfectly legal....... See my point??

Nope...because it is not just that black and white. They are metal parts/equipment within 5' from the pool then they have a great argument to be enforced. While my response is less combative than yours I would say the opinion is based on all the information I posted and not only my own. Enforce it as you will, form your own interpretation as well but this OP has to deal with local AHJ's who may or maynot see if differently. Sad to say the NEC does not always spell things out the the language you may like to see it spelled out.....The reference to the handbook is very relavant in the OP's question to a long standing debate on this very topic. I happen to believe it is also pointless but I feel as it is written right now the CMP members for this article disagree....until then the local AHJ will make their own calls, I simply posted a viewpoint and then stated my viewpoint as you have stated your viewpoint and in the end the NEC Handbook, Mine or yours make no difference.....his local inspector will make the call.

 

[macmikeman]

Sir, my response was not meant to be combative, just strictly factual. It is not written into the NEC and therefore when the NEC is adopted it is not adopted along with it. As for AHJ's deciphering codes, how they decide is up to them, not me, I do not claim otherwise...... All done, have a good evening