a few questions

[wireperson]

questions to ask

1- when doing a residential job , like installing a few outlets and fans , what percentage do you usually ask in advanced to start the job? the same for a commercial
2-any rules about kitchen island receptacles: where is a code reference about island receptacles? how many do I need? any rules about spacing orlocations ? where do you guys usually place it? a home owner told me something about a 6" rule ,

3- for a low voltage surface mounted undercounter pot lights, where do you place the xformer?

 

[George Stolz]

1- when doing a residential job , like installing a few outlets and fans , what percentage do you usually ask in advanced to start the job? the same for a commercial

Small job, nothing down.

2-any rules about kitchen island receptacles: where is a code reference about island receptacles? how many do I need? any rules about spacing orlocations ? where do you guys usually place it? a home owner told me something about a 6" rule ,

See 210.52, and reconsider doing this alone the first time.

3- for a low voltage surface mounted undercounter pot lights, where do you place the xformer?

Stay away from puck lights. Tell the homeowner there's no legal way to install them, and upgrade them to regular undercabinet xenon lights.

 

[Sierrasparky]

What state are you from. My state only allows 10% or a 1,000 which ever is less for Residential remodel.

If you are doing work under 750.00 and start the work the same day by law you cannot take any money until the job is complete.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Stay away from puck lights. Tell the homeowner there's no legal way to install them, and upgrade them to regular undercabinet xenon lights.

How do you come to the notion there is no legal way to install them?

 

[George Stolz]

I come to that because generally, the homeowner wants them installed in such a way that is illegal - not in compliance with it's listing. I simply wince and say, "You know, there are very few legal and attractive ways of installing puck lights. Generally, 4 out of 5 times you see a puck light installation, it has been done illegally and is unsafe. I recommend using this attractive undercabinet fixture, which can easily be wired safely, and is more congruent with your design."

By the time they look up 'congruent', I'm already done installing the UC lights.

 

[wireperson]

florida , here.
this home owner wants low voltage puck lights , but I'm thinking where to put the xformer , does it need to be surface mounted? in a box? ??? ideas?

 

[hurk27]

How do you come to the notion there is no legal way to install them?

I think he's talking about the 12v type, can't run un listed cable in the walls and no one make a listed cable that is allowed in the walls, we just run between the cabinets when there is a space, I always set receptacles above the cabinets horizontal, and fish the wires down between the cabinets, but some of the custom cabinets don't have that little 1/4" gap so it's ether through the cabinets or no puck lights. the other reason is even if you do use a chapter 3 wiring method, the code still requires a juntion box for splices even on 12 volts, so that limits the ways to keep it from getting ugly

 

[480sparky]

I come to that because generally, the homeowner wants them installed in such a way that is illegal - not in compliance with it's listing. I simply wince and say, "You know, there are very few legal and attractive ways of installing puck lights. Generally, 4 out of 5 times you see a puck light installation, it has been done illegally and is unsafe. I recommend using this attractive undercabinet fixture, which can easily be wired safely, and is more congruent with your design."

By the time they look up 'congruent', I'm already done installing the UC lights.

And what way do they want them installed that would make it a code violation?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I think he's talking about the 12v type, can't run un listed cable in the walls and no one make a listed cable that is allowed in the walls, we just run between the cabinets when there is a space, I always set receptacles above the cabinets horizontal, and fish the wires down between the cabinets, but some of the custom cabinets don't have that little 1/4" gap so it's ether through the cabinets or no puck lights. the other reason is even if you do use a chapter 3 wiring method, the code still requires a juntion box for splices even on 12 volts, so that limits the ways to keep it from getting ugly

There is CL2 - 3 rated cable for the purpose. It might be hard to come by but there is the stuff and it's not speaker wire. It's limited voltage in wall or plenum rated and I've seen riser also.

 

[macmikeman]

I use nice duct that has a hinged side for the low voltage wire that is shipped with the pucks. I run it inside cabinets. It comes in white , light brown, or dark brown. I make miter cuts for corners with my "chop saw". It comes out looking t-rif and nothing is concealed inside of any walls. Transformer either is mounted in a j-box on top of the cabs or inside a cab up high if there is no place on top of the boxes. All splices are made up inside j-boxes. Where is the code violation? ( by the way, I also try to talk customers out of these cause they are a pain to install, but if they wan't em bad enough to pay big, in they go...)

 

[Sierrasparky]

All splices are made up inside j-boxes. Where is the code violation? ( by the way, I also try to talk customers out of these cause they are a pain to install, but if they wan't em bad enough to pay big, in they go...)

Why the need to have a splice in a junction box. Use crimps and such.

 

[George Stolz]

And what way do they want them installed that would make it a code violation?

Generally, they buy these and don't want to see any cord. Cut the cord and splice in some NM, and you've violated 110.3(B). Tack up the cord and you're violating 400.8(4).

 

[Sierrasparky]

Generally, they buy these and don't want to see any cord. Cut the cord and splice in some NM, and you've violated 110.3(B). Tack up the cord and you're violating 400.8(4).

I don't see how there is a violation of either code. Most if not all puc lights have a connector or pigtail. If a DIY does some funky install how is that the EC problem nor why is it expected that the EC repeat this process.

 

[Sierrasparky]

florida , here.
this home owner wants low voltage puck lights , but I'm thinking where to put the xformer , does it need to be surface mounted? in a box? ??? ideas?

Just use proper wire that is rated for the use and location and ampacity.
If you are talking about a electrionic trans you can place it in a junction box. Fuse the secondary as required..

 

[480sparky]

Generally, they buy these and don't want to see any cord. Cut the cord and splice in some NM, and you've violated 110.3(B). Tack up the cord and you're violating 400.8(4).

I wouldn't call it 'flexible cord'. I'd call it part of a listed assembly.

 

[e57]

I don't mean to sound harsh.

These questions never came up before you became an "Electrical Contractor"?

#1 came up on my test to get my license.
#2 & 3 came up on every type of job with those conditions before, and while I was a Foreman.

Now the answers:
#1 check with the licensing entity in your state.
#2 is in 210.52 of whatever code cycle you are on.
#3 is a listing issue inherent with these types of fixtures since day one. Most are UL listed as lighting for 'furniture', and even those in the separate listing for kitchen cabinets expressly forbid the component wiring in the walls. And the manufactures of these are purposefully vague about this as it makes for a dang ugly install. However - 411 provides some guidance that can be used. Depending on the fixture used - you 'could' put a J-box in the wall in the back of the upper for the transformer, and run the listed wiring between the cabinet and the sheet-rock wall, but not inside the sheet-rock wall. By coordination with the cabinet maker you can make a small soffet to hide the wiring.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Are you speaking of low voltage or line voltage puck lights.
I don't see an issue here. Use listed components and wire.
spoken at great length here http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1071153&postcount=1

 

[e57]

Are you speaking of low voltage or line voltage puck lights.
I don't see an issue here. Use listed components and wire.
spoken at great length here http://forums.mikeholt.com/showpost.php?p=1071153&postcount=1

I don't see anything solved in that thread.....

This is one of the listing guides typically available for these types of "puck lights" This is another.... It is important to distinguish the various type, and their respective listings in regards to application. Not many allow the "Listed cord assembly" to be removed and re-spliced, and likewise those systems are not allowed in the wall unless in a chapter 3 method. As well as others - without a "Listed cord assembly" feeding the lamps, also require a chapter 3 method to be in the walls.

Bottom line is - when you get the fixture spec - you look it up in the White Book. (The link is an 800 page PDF - careful... ) And or the appropriate guide for the product, the manufacturers are PURPOSEFULLY vague IMO, and do what they can to lead to the impression that their product can be used like the 'other' product similar to it. Not all are the same, and do not share the same listing for nearly identical products.

Sure there are SOME that can use field spliced class-2 wire, but there are FEW of them....

 

[e57]

Here is a good clean method - IF THE FIXTURE LISTING ALLOWS!

 

[George Stolz]

You do that with Sketchup? Looks good.