Panelboard Usage

[paul]

I'm still surprised that no one has bothered to comment about this installation with regard to the possibility of adding more circuits let alone multi-wire circuits and the ramifications thereof.

I do lots of installations that someone can take later and really mess up. I install to code for what I'm installing and have it inspected. I cannot and do not worry that the next person who comes along is competent. What's to stop someone from running a 120V circuit off the "B" phase of a delta setup? If they don't take the time to figure out what they are doing is correct, the liability lies on them, not me.

With that said, I have hooked up several panels as you have shown. They were an commercial/industrial setup where the panel was fed from a 120V inverter. Yes, I found existing setups where they shared a neutral. I fixed those problems after I addressed them with the owner. There are more then enough incompetent electricians out there that screw things up. I cannot babysit them, that's the inspector's job. They should be pulling a permit when adding a circuit.

Also, the front of that panel should have a label to let those know who pull the cover off that it's 120V only. No MWBC's! Not required, but advisable.

 

[acrwc10]

Maybe look at art. 408 if you want to find panelboards.

 

[dpeter]

Just how are the grounds handled in this panel? Is it all emt and mc and the devices grounded at their respective outlets? I do not see ground conductors anywhere.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

... I'm still surprised that no one has bothered to comment about this installation with regard to the possibility of adding more circuits let alone multi-wire circuits and the ramifications thereof.

You can't cite future possible violations. You can take almost any installation and add enough load in the future to cause a problem. In this case you just have to look at a load calculation for what is currently connected.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

> If this is a subpanel, there is no restriction as to the number of circuit breakers without a main breaker.

In this particular instance, I agree but such may not always be the case in referring to NEC section 384-16(a) pertaining to Overcurrent Protection of panelboards.

That is the old code section for the protection of panels, but even the old code did not require that the protection be in the form of a main breaker installed in the panel itself. As long as the breaker that feeder conductors are connected to has a rating equal to or less than the rating of the panel the panel has its required protection. See exception #1 to the section that you cited.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Its great that a HI is trying to back things up with code. Future installs need to be forgot about as they do not apply. What you have is 2 violations. #1 the bonding strap needs removed ,easy fix. The white tape while not legal is no big deal and many here would done the same as few of us carry #8 in white, be surprised if supply house even has it. In my opinion leave that alone. Now we need deal with that jumper, if it was striped and folded without cutting it then it is only 1 conductor. Unless your going to do a load calc you need back off on saying its overloaded.
Summed up this needs 30 seconds worth of work to remove bond. However you as the HI in most states can not remove it as your not licensed. The home owner can.

 

[TOOL_5150]

The only code violations I see is that lug is probably not rated for 2 wires and if that wire is smaller than #4, it cannot be marked whit - it must be white. As far as grounding.. it looks like its all pipe coming into the panel, so no extra ground has to be pulled.

~Matt

 

[suemarkp]

not to mention that there are a total of (6) 15A 120V circuits being supplied by this 30A 120V subpanel.

A load calc can be really low sometimes. If this is a dwelling and all this panel served was attached garage outlets, bathroom receptacles, basement outlets, and outside receptacles, then the calculated load could be 0.

 

[macmikeman]

Thats not such a problem panel. Now these are a problem......

[/IMG]

 

[glene77is]

Marty,

I am glad to read a post from an inspector.
I occassionaly call for an early inspection,
just to hear what the "other" trained eye can see
that I missed while I was hot and sweaty.
AHJ will always have job,
which is more than I can say for myself.

Thanks for noting the #8 AWG THHN Cu. So, tape allowed.

Did you say he had a Ground Rod ???

IMO,
when the shed is combined with the load calcs for the main house,
then 'diversity' may cover the six circuits.
At any rate, they are controlled by the circuit breakers.

IMO,
""what if someone later decides to fill the panel let alone install multiwire circuits""
should not be your concern.
Someone "later" could decide to many things which you could not possibly list here.
AHJ will always have job.

What the manufacturer had in mind is fairly obvious.
What the User had in mind was a single circuit panel.
Only experienced electricians are supposed to be looking at this panel "later".
An amateurs opinion and plans for future expansion of this sub-panel
can never be predicted, exactly. Your only hope would be to weld the box shut,
which would be a violation.

The User must not strap the Neutral and the Ground,
in a sub-panel. This violates the concept of a neutral.

I don't know about "hard pill to swallow",
sounds like a personal interpretation, to me.

 

[buldogg]

Thats not such a problem panel. Now these are a problem......

[/IMG]

Do you think whomever did this work understands 110.12?

 

[daleuger]

> One does not add the circuit breaker value up to find the load of the panel.
> One or more of the circuits may be supplying receptacle circuits with no loads >plugged in. That would be the reason for a load calculation

The above is agreed and clearly understood. However, I was going by the six or more circuits rule which I gather does not apply to the sub-panel. I'm still surprised that no one has bothered to comment about this installation with regard to the possibility of adding more circuits let alone multi-wire circuits and the ramifications thereof.

On that note and a little side note....wonder what the load on the main neutral is going to look like with just that many circuits all on the same phase, much less adding even more or God fobid MWBC's to the sub-panel. :roll:

 

[don_resqcapt19]

On that note and a little side note....wonder what the load on the main neutral is going to look like with just that many circuits all on the same phase, much less adding even more or God fobid MWBC's to the sub-panel. :roll:

The grounded conductor and the ungrounded conductor that make up the feeder appear to be of the same size. Assuming that the ungrounded conductor is protected at or below its rated ampacity, there is no possibility of overloading the grounded conductor.

 

[quique001]

accident ready to happen..

 

[Tevil]

Is the electrical tape use to ID that this cable is neutral? Where is the ground? The panel has two bus bars, Ground and neutral and they are isolated from each other, no problem there, but where is the third cable, the one for ground? Where I am from this panel is unfit. Major issues may occur (MIMO).

 

[macmikeman]

Do you think whomever did this work understands 110.12?

Nope, About 3 circuits were marked with Chinese lettering on a paper next to the panels.

 

[hillbilly]

Marty,


Thanks for noting the #8 AWG THHN Cu. So, tape allowed.

That neutral would have to be larger than a #6 to use tape for identification.

Read 200.6 (2005)

steve

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

That neutral would have to be larger than a #6 to use tape for identification.

Read 200.6 (2005)

steve

Does your supply house stock #8 in white ?
Yes violation but bet most here have done it.
Never understood why it is fine on #4 but not smaller. Any good reason for this ?
Real question here is why installer did not simply run 2 ungrounded #10 and a white.

 

[hillbilly]

Is the electrical tape use to ID that this cable is neutral? Where is the ground? The panel has two bus bars, Ground and neutral and they are isolated from each other, no problem there, but where is the third cable, the one for ground? Where I am from this panel is unfit. Major issues may occur (MIMO).

I don't know if it's true in this particular installation (since I've never seen it)....but...

If all of the circuits are run in metal conduit including the feeder, and all of the conduits (or cable sheaths) are rated for use as a Grounding Conductor, there wouldn't be a need (per code) for a grounding conductor in the feeder or branch circuits.

The metal conduit (or cable) could be used as the grounding conductor.

The (bonded) metal boxes where the circuits terminate could be used to attach the grounds.
Either by using a jumper from the switch/receptacle to the metal box, or by direct contact if it's a surface mounted box.

Just my opinion
steve

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I don't know if it's true in this particular installation (since I've never seen it)....but...

If all of the circuits are run in metal conduit including the feeder, and all of the conduits (or cable sheaths) are rated for use as a Grounding Conductor, there wouldn't be a need (per code) for a grounding conductor in the feeder or branch circuits.

The metal conduit (or cable) could be used as the grounding conductor.

The (bonded) metal boxes where the circuits terminate could be used to attach the grounds.
Either by using a jumper from the switch/receptacle to the metal box, or by direct contact if it's a surface mounted box.

Just my opinion
steve

Yes and NEC allows it. Many of us prefer to add a ground wire but not required