Chritsmas lighting display in park

[Power Joe]

Hello, I'm going to be responsible to set up a rather large 'seasonal' lighting display in a garden park. I will be using an 400 amp 600 volt service which will be feeding 600 to 120/208 volt transformers scattered though-out the site.

These transformers will feed distribution panels mounted inside of wooden enclosures that will keep them dry. The panel enclosures will have receptacles to plug in cords that will feed the 120 volt circuits.

The question I have is reguarding the cords. I would like to use 5-wire cabtire and have three circuits on each cord. The male ends are going to be three phase twist lock. My question is what to use on the female end where the christmas lights will plug in? The outlets will be out in the elements and should be code approved for this use.

Am I going to have to have something custom built?

Thanks

 

[mcclary's electrical]

To me, they would have to terminate to a GFCI outlet. I think I would use FS box with in use cover. Stake upright w/strut. They'll hide it with some ornementation. Seperate boxes for different circuits.

 

[wshoard]

Is this going to be static light displays or computerized animated displays controlled by something like LOR controllers? Lights only, or will it also include other items?

A good Forum to ask questions about displays is: http://talk.planetchristmas.com/ .

 

[Power Joe]

Thanks for the reply's.

As far as needing Gfi's for christmas lights, are they required by code?

I would like to use Fs boxes however I would need at least three gang as I'm feeding them with 3 phase.

I wonder if I can get some custom made aluminum boxes with three or six duplex outlets that had some sort of 'in-use' cover on them.
They would have to be small and durable as this show goes on year after year.

The display is static, however we hire a contractor to do an animated show to music in a small part of the park.

Thanks for the link to 'planet christmas' I'm sure to do a lot of reading there.

 

[dbuckley]

Actually, although Planet Christmas is a great forum, its really not the place to ask electrical questions; they do some scary things over there. I've not been a recent participant, but do recall many PC forum members hate GFCIs 'cos they cause the displays to stop, and thats because they use indoor two pin wiring (SPT cord), and when the snow buries the connectors and the electricity starts to leak, and the GFCIs open...

They also like to use three core extension cables as two hots plus neutral, ignoring the green colour code...

 

[don_resqcapt19]

...
As far as needing Gfi's for christmas lights, are they required by code?
...

I say yes based on 210.8(B)(4) and 590.2(A).

 

[mcclary's electrical]

Thanks for the reply's.

As far as needing Gfi's for christmas lights, are they required by code?

I would like to use Fs boxes however I would need at least three gang as I'm feeding them with 3 phase.

I wonder if I can get some custom made aluminum boxes with three or six duplex outlets that had some sort of 'in-use' cover on them.
They would have to be small and durable as this show goes on year after year.

The display is static, however we hire a contractor to do an animated show to music in a small part of the park.

Thanks for the link to 'planet christmas' I'm sure to do a lot of reading there.

At home, no, but I wold think that if they are publically accessible, then they would have to be
IMO

 

[don_resqcapt19]

At home, no, but I wold think that if they are publically accessible, then they would have to be
IMO

The combination of 210.8(A)(3) and 590.2(A) would require GFCI protection at a dwelling unit.

 

[zbang]

These transformers will feed distribution panels mounted inside of wooden enclosures that will keep them dry. The panel enclosures will have receptacles to plug in cords that will feed the 120 volt circuits.

You really want "spider boxes" which are purpose built for temporary power supplies. You can buy a 6-circuit, fully-raintight, GFCI-equipped, UL listed, etc etc box for <$600.

I would like to use 5-wire cabtire and have three circuits on each cord. The male ends are going to be three phase twist lock. My question is what to use on the female end where the christmas lights will plug in? The outlets will be out in the elements and should be code approved for this use.

I use either the aforementioned spider boxes and good quality extension cords or some commercially-made 3-circuit dealies with an L21-20 plug and 3 GFCI outlets. These plug into a larger distro panel via 12/5 cable.

Am I going to have to have something custom built?

Rent rent rent. Unless you have money to buy or build rain-tight panels, IMHO you'll do better to get everything from a decent rental company. The big ones are Kohler, Agreko, and CAT, but any place the rents to construction or event sites will have what you need. PM me if you need more info.

 

[e57]

Hello, I'm going to be responsible to set up a rather large 'seasonal' lighting display in a garden park. I will be using an 400 amp 600 volt service which will be feeding 600 to 120/208 volt transformers scattered though-out the site.

How are you doing these???? SO cord? Conduit? Over head?

These transformers will feed distribution panels mounted inside of wooden enclosures that will keep them dry. The panel enclosures will have receptacles to plug in cords that will feed the 120 volt circuits.

Whatever method you use to do the transformers - you could do these the same way IMO. Instead of a whole bunch of 120 cords coming back to the transformer/dist OCP - take 5-wire feeds out from there 3 circuits at a time to a point closer to use.... Say inside a snowman or something???? :grin:

Not sure what you do for a living - but there is little use for previously cut SO cord. However if an EC, if you did it in say - conduit all that wire (if in decent lengths) could end up in a decent commercial job after the new year... Say you're being green and recycling it... Or just don't say anything....

 

[e57]

I say yes based on 210.8(B)(4) and 590.2(A).

Not so sure on that - there may be a way out of GFI's if one wanted to in 590.6(B)2. Assuming these are for lighting ONLY.

 

[wireguru]

instead of doing 3ph drops, use 50a twistlock and spider boxes. This way you can make up your main distribution panels, and just rent the rest for a fraction of what it would all cost to buy.

 

[jim dungar]

... 600 volt service....

Is this installation in Canada? There are not many 600V distribution systems in the US.

 

[e57]

You can also rent 3 phase theater break out equipment too... I have seen some that look like spider boxes - some that make the spider/turtle box design look compromised.

I have seen one that was like the item on page 5 here - but with a square-D panel and outlets inside it... That said - I'm sure my local sheet metal guy could build the enclosure for me to put a panel inside of it...

These people also make NEMA 3 versions of the items on page 29 here.

They probably rent somewhere close to LA....

 

[wireguru]

You can also rent 3 phase theater break out equipment too... I have seen some that look like spider boxes - some that make the spider/turtle box design look compromised.

I have seen one that was like the item on page 5 here - but with a square-D panel and outlets inside it... That said - I'm sure my local sheet metal guy could build the enclosure for me to put a panel inside of it...

These people also make NEMA 3 versions of the items on page 29 here.

They probably rent somewhere close to LA....

theres a ton of 3ph theatrical stuff, but not much thats weatherproof or has GFCIs. At least in the US nothing is more available for rental than 50a twist and spider boxes. Plus the construction equipment rental places are much more forgiving of the condition the equipment comes back in than the theatrical rental houses.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Not so sure on that - there may be a way out of GFI's if one wanted to in 590.6(B)2. Assuming these are for lighting ONLY.

590.6 does not apply to this installation. See the first part of the section.

590.6 Ground-Fault Protection for Personnel.
Ground-fault protection for personnel for all temporary wiring installations shall be provided to comply with 590.6(A) and (B). This section shall apply only to temporary wiring installations used to supply temporary power to equipment used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities. This section shall apply to power derived from an electric utility company or from an on-site-generated power source.

My point is that the receptacle is outdoors and 210.8 requires GFCI protection. The rule in 590.2(A) says all of the standard code rules apply for temporary installations unless modified by a rule in Article 590. I don't see any such modification for this application.

 

[e57]

theres a ton of 3ph theatrical stuff, but not much thats weatherproof or has GFCIs. At least in the US nothing is more available for rental than 50a twist and spider boxes. Plus the construction equipment rental places are much more forgiving of the condition the equipment comes back in than the theatrical rental houses.

True - but 3 phase is what the guy was looking for...

Also - Just not sure how well a spider box would hold up in night-time exposed to winter weather conditions - they hardly stand up dry indoor conditions... Can't imagine buried in melting snow...

There is also nothing codewise from what I can see from building your own IMO - by taking a NEMA 3/3R doored enclosure of a suitable size putting a panel and outlets in it. Assuming X-mas happens every year, and other events as well... Why not build/buy something to last? I used to something similar with wood pallets with a 'wall' built on them with panels and outlets - going one step further one could put the same in a cabinet, and fork-lift it into place every year, and make some smaller ones to place here and there. A 16x16X6 NEMA3R with the bottom knocked out, mount it to a 30" stand with a 12 space and outlets in it. Maybe even make some of it semi-permanent, bury conduit and put the stands over an in-grade box...

 

[e57]

590.6 does not apply to this installation. See the first part of the section.


My point is that the receptacle is outdoors and 210.8 requires GFCI protection. The rule in 590.2(A) says all of the standard code rules apply for temporary installations unless modified by a rule in Article 590. I don't see any such modification for this application.

I don't see it that way - This is lighting for X-mas, not personel...
Not a construction site with people building and tearing down Santa's work-shop with sawzall's....

used by personnel during construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities.

I mentioned it as the only way out of GFI's, while it is not feasible for most to have that type of inspection regime it might help the trips - but the trips are saying something...

 

[e57]

Don - I should say we are not disagreeing.... Take a look at one would have to do to get out of having GFIs... 208v in RMC inspected and recorded with the AHJ.....

Not so sure on that - there may be a way out of GFI's if one wanted to in 590.6(B)2. Assuming these are for lighting ONLY.

 

[zbang]

theres a ton of 3ph theatrical stuff, but not much thats weatherproof or has GFCIs. At least in the US nothing is more available for rental than 50a twist and spider boxes. Plus the construction equipment rental places are much more forgiving of the condition the equipment comes back in than the theatrical rental houses.

They're also a lot more 'forgiving' about the condition it leaves their shop . (Once had a trailer-mounted genny delivered with one tail dragging on the road. The camlok was just about shot, they had to send someone out with another set of tails.)

Doesn't matter whether the source is 3-phase or not, IMHO spider boxes and 50a cable is way to go. You can still power them from 3-phase sources. As for winter survival, unless the shop-built stuff is very well made, I don't see how it's any better than commercial stuff. Assuming new parts, given the cost you're probably ahead to buy pre-made. Also, consider the cost of storage and transportation..

Oh, and GFCIs all the way unless the display area is completely closed to the public, but I'd use them anyway if I had them.