NEC article 525

[shawnbebout]

Hello all,
I need your help on this article. I am a journeyman electrician with almost 15 years experience. I also own a bounce castle rental business on the side. I am on another forum about moonwalks (bouncy castles).
The issue is
1) wether 525 even applies to a bounce castle (inflatable jumping castle).
*)My interpretation (and 2 other inspectors) is that it applies to carnivals, Circuses, fairs etc, not a backyard BBQ/birthday party.

2)article 525.21(A).Disconnecting Means. Each portable structure shall be provided with a disconnect switch located within 1.8 m (6ft) of the operator's station. The disconnecting means shall be readily accessible to the operator.....
*) there is no manufactures designated operator's station on a bouncy castle.
*) I have given the definition of "disconnecting means" to them. It says in the definition of disconnecting means "..by other means". I tell them that if you unplug a blower from a outlet that is your disconnect (other means). I have also quoted article 430.109(f) that says you can use a plug on a cord and plug connected motor as a disconnect. Yet he continues to say you need a disconnect and unplugging a blower does not qualify as a disconnect.

Please feel free to comment on this as I will post a link to this on the thread where the argument is taking place.
Thanks
Shawn

 

[George Stolz]

Go ahead and post the link if you like.

Edit: I just re-read that and realized you were saying you were going to post this thread on the other forum - I wouldn't mind seeing the other forum too, I was thinking you were saying the opposite, sorry.

 

[shawnbebout]

I will do that. A blower is a motor in a plastic enclosure with fan blades attached to the output shaft of the matter.
Here are some of the threads dealing with the NEC

This one is if the NEC Article applies

http://moonwalkforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10183

This is one on cords. You have to skip ahead a bit to find the NEC discussion. Page 1 has one comment, they really begin on page 2

http://moonwalkforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=10140&st=20

I hope these help, and I am pretty sure I am correct on everything I posted. If not let me know and I will correct it.
Thanks
Shawn

 

[George Stolz]

I agree with your take on it, but the phrase in the title of 525, "similar events," leaves it open to interpretation. I really don't see how a backyard BBQ could be compared to a carnival. I wonder what happens though, if you take that same appliance to a carnival?

As an aside - why do you say a GFCI won't work if the ground pin is broken off the male end of the cord?

 

[zbang]

Yet he continues to say you need a disconnect and unplugging a blower does not qualify as a disconnect.

I'd really like to know in which universe removing the connection doesn't qualify as disconnected. Does he have a citation for it?

 

[shawnbebout]

George,
I see you are up in Fort Collins. I live down in Longmont. Small world. On your question, I was thinking of how we are required to inspect extension cords on the jobsite and reject the bad ones. Article 590.6 (B)(2) I know one of our GC's want us to cut the cord ends off, but I just tell the "offenders" to remove the cords from the sight until repaired.

zbang,
This guy is a "safety/ride inspector" from North Carolina. Somehow he got a copy of article 525. I don't think he understands how to understand or appy the code. That is why he is hung up on the cord not being a disconnect. It says "disconnect switch" in one setence and "disconnecting meant" in the next. He can't (won't) understand that it is a disconnect. And since I am saying he is wrong, he is trying to discredit me. That is why I turned to the members of this forum for help.
But NO he doesn't have a citation for it.

Thanks for your help

 

[George Stolz]

Well, technically yes, "disconnect switch" would preclude the use of a cord and plug connection, despite the fact that cord-and-plug is considered to be a disconnecting means for most purposes, as evidenced throughout the code. However, it's a moot point unless you set up the appliance at a carnival.

I see you are up in Fort Collins. I live down in Longmont. Small world.

Small world indeed, I'll have to meet up with you when I trim the house we roughed down there.

On your question, I was thinking of how we are required to inspect extension cords on the jobsite and reject the bad ones. Article 590.6 (B)(2) I know one of our GC's want us to cut the cord ends off, but I just tell the "offenders" to remove the cords from the sight until repaired.

Half a dozen of one, six of the other. I think the best method to ensure the cord is repaired is to cut the end off, it's technically junk at that point anyway and it really does force the repair. I try to keep a couple cord ends on the truck to make a quick buck or score points with the other trades.

I owe you an apology, I misread what you wrote in the other thread too - I need to slow down a bit.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

I agree with George, the code section clearly requires the use of a disconnect switch, and does not permit a cord and plug to be used as the disconnect in this case. If the code section said "means of disconnect" and not "disconnect switch", then you could use a cord and plug.
Now the question is, does Article 525 apply to this application. I don't think so, but I can see the AHJ applying it for safety reasons as that article is the best suited to apply to the application.

 

[up&down guy]

6 foot Disconnects

6 foot Disconnects

In regards to the 6 foot disconnect, the original conversation was start over a year ago and the blower motor that we were talking about had a 75 foot extension cord attached to it. I made the statement that that particular blower/cord combo did not meet the 6 foot disconnect rule.

My new friend Shawn has not given an accurate picture of the entire conversation. I further said that the Article 525 is used as an enforcement tool in many states that regulate amusement rides and devices in a commercial setting. Many states do not have safety requirements or regulation.

Due to the lack of a proactive approach by a few some of the many are very reactive regarding their response. Shawn does not need to worry about it because in his state they don't even regulate amusement rides at the government level, other than insurance.

Personally I think the same standards should apply to backyard events as however that is an entirely different subject.

Ken Martin
Richmond, VA

 

[e57]

FWIW them things are a drunk 25 year olds worst enemy - I nearly paralyzed myself at that age....

 

[shawnbebout]

You guys can now see what I am dealing with.

He said "My new friend Shawn has not given an accurate picture of the entire conversation" Even though I gave two links to the Actual threads for a person to read. You can read the threads. They were not started over a year ago.

 

[shawnbebout]

525.21 (A) Disconnecting means[\b]. Each portable structure shall be provided with a disconnect switch located withing sight of and within 1.8m (6') of the operator's station. The disconnecing means[\b] shall be readily accessible.....

It uses the words disconnecting means twice and the word disconnect switch once. I am pretty much frustrated with Ken Martin. He is claiming to be a safety expert, while giving bad code advice. I need to let it go, but you know how things are handled on a jobsite.

Thanks for your help
shawn

 

[don_resqcapt19]

525.21 (A) Disconnecting means[\b]. Each portable structure shall be provided with a disconnect switch located withing sight of and within 1.8m (6') of the operator's station. The disconnecing means[\b] shall be readily accessible.....

It uses the words disconnecting means twice and the word disconnect switch once. I am pretty much frustrated with Ken Martin. He is claiming to be a safety expert, while giving bad code advice. I need to let it go, but you know how things are handled on a jobsite.

Thanks for your help
shawn

The words "disconnecting means" in this code section do not let you use any means of disconnect that you want to. The code section very clearly requires that the "disconnecting means" be in the form of a disconnect switch.

 

[Volta]

525.21(A) does require a "switch", if the location settings are "similar functions".

At what number of persons does it become similar to a carnival?

The equipment is portable, is the type typically found at carnivals, street fairs, and so on. It is likely to be used by those unfamiliar with it.

What if the birthday party netted 120 children, with some parents? Is that similar to a small carnival? 80 kids? 45?

IMO, per the NEC, we need a switch, though maybe right on the blower motor would be ok.

From a non-NEC standpoint, for this particular ride, in an emergency it is likely more important to be sure the structure stays inflated, rather than quickly stopping the blower. Might be difficult to extract someone suffering from a seizure, for instance, while the castle collapses around you.

 

[up&down guy]

525.21(A) does require a "switch", if the location settings are "similar functions".

At what number of persons does it become similar to a carnival?

The equipment is portable, is the type typically found at carnivals, street fairs, and so on. It is likely to be used by those unfamiliar with it.

What if the birthday party netted 120 children, with some parents? Is that similar to a small carnival? 80 kids? 45?

IMO, per the NEC, we need a switch, though maybe right on the blower motor would be ok.

From a non-NEC standpoint, for this particular ride, in an emergency it is likely more important to be sure the structure stays inflated, rather than quickly stopping the blower. Might be difficult to extract someone suffering from a seizure, for instance, while the castle collapses around you.

Most Inflatables have baffles that restrict deflation. They are now required to be manufacturer that way.

I agree that a switch blower may serve the purpose. However most if not all blowers are located at the rear of the Inflatable. Many time further than 6 feet.

Many states have used 525 as an enforcement tool. Mike Holt has even lectured at several of the amusement industries training sessions. About 20 states now use 525 for enforcement. This list is growing, but I think we are a long way away from regulating Colorado.

 

[up&down guy]

You guys can now see what I am dealing with.

He said "My new friend Shawn has not given an accurate picture of the entire conversation" Even though I gave two links to the Actual threads for a person to read. You can read the threads. They were not started over a year ago.

No the most recents threads were not. However the original thread was started more than a year ago.
"http://moonwalkforum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=4431&hl="

Note the date on the post as September 7, 2007
It seems that the new guy Shawn is a little frustrated. he has try to bully me on the another forum and now he is trying here as well.

It is like I have always said, The NEC is used as applicable by the Authority Having Jurisdiction.

 

[benaround]

Shawn,

I don't see this as any different than renting a jackhammer or a coredrill or any thing else

that a homeowner may rent and have to provide 120v power to. This ' object' does not

need an Electrician to set it up, compared to a carnival or circus, where Electricians and

permits are required as SOP.

Do the people who rent these from you need to get a permit from the Local B.D. ? If not,

why is there an Inspector even showing up ?