Two holes on each side of 4" square box

[1793]

Ever see a smart box with the screws designed to go thru the side of the box? They work great for remodel work when your are tight to a stud.

Like these?

 

[whillis]

I have no problems with screws inside the box if they sit flat although I generally use a box that has recesses for the screws just to be safe, i.e. the 1104-LHU found in http://www.hubbellonline.com/wiring/tradeSelect/pdf/TradeSelectA3.pdf

 

[mivey]

I have an email in to UL. I still say that screws or nails inside a box for support of the box, that are not within a 1/4 in of the back of the box is not permitted; metal or plastic.

That does not seem to follow common sense, which I find odd because the posts I usually read from you seem to be more common-sense oriented.

You may be technically correct and I'm sure you will update us on UL's answer, but I don't see any practical reason you could not put a screw in the side of a raco box that is more than 1/4 inch from the back of the box.

I would not recommend a fat hex-head as it just unnecessarily takes up space. I would also shun nails next to the device terminals and would also recommend using grip nails if you just have to use a nail instead of a screw.

What do you consider to be the practical danger?

 

[ivsenroute]

This is actually a great thread but I am surprised at the number of responses to this post considering it is a post about the holes in a box. Gotta love it!

 

[mivey]

This is actually a great thread but I am surprised at the number of responses to this post considering it is a post about the holes in a box. Gotta love it!

We are easily amused. :grin:

 

[480sparky]

This is actually a great thread but I am surprised at the number of responses to this post considering it is a post about the holes in a box. Gotta love it!

But actually, no one has actually posted the correct answer.

Those holes are there strictly for the hacks to use when they don't want to spend a few cents for an NM conector. They just strip the sheath, and run the individual conductors through those holes.

 

[ivsenroute]

But actually, no one has actually posted the correct answer.

Those holes are there strictly for the hacks to use when they don't want to spend a few cents for an NM conector. They just strip the sheath, and run the individual conductors through those holes.

Yes, manufacturers are getting more DIY installation friendly.

 

[mivey]

But actually, no one has actually posted the correct answer.

Those holes are there strictly for the hacks to use when they don't want to spend a few cents for an NM conector. They just strip the sheath, and run the individual conductors through those holes.

Hacks do that too? Of course, the professionals know to drill an additional hole for the ground. :grin:

 

[480sparky]

Hacks do that too? Of course, the professionals know to drill an additional hole for the ground. :grin:

No, the professional knows how to ignore the ground because it doesn't do anything anyway. It's a conspiracy on the part of the copper manufacturers to sell more product to the unwitting.

If nothing else, the grounds get tied together behind the box. That way, no one can mess with 'em.

 

[mivey]

It's a conspiracy on the part of the copper manufacturers to sell more product to the unwitting.

But they won't get me, because I'm still using a warehouse full of aluminum wire I acquired during the 70's. I'm figuring it's grandfathered. :grin:

 

[480sparky]

But they won't get me, because I'm still using a warehouse full of aluminum wire I acquired during the 70's. I'm figuring it's grandfathered. :grin:

.......and there's a 1965 NEC on the dash of your truck.......

 

[Sierrasparky]

and i have several boxes of receps and switches that al # 12 back stabbed. Those be granfatherd too:roll:

 

[mivey]

.......and there's a 1965 NEC on the dash of your truck.......

Well not yet, but I'm planning on getting a more up-to-date version any day now.

 

[buck33k]

I recall some information about an energized conductor or device terminal contacting a screw in wood, causing heat and eventually fire. I can't remember where I came across this. Does anyone know of this?

 

[mivey]

I recall some information about an energized conductor or device terminal contacting a screw in wood, causing heat and eventually fire. I can't remember where I came across this. Does anyone know of this?

There might be more to it than that because wood can be used as an insulator. There had to be some other factors involved.

Besides, if it was a problem, you should have the same effect if the conductor or device terminal touched the box, or jiffy clip, or...

 

[220/221]

I recall some information about an energized conductor or device terminal contacting a screw in wood, causing heat and eventually fire

If that happens you have bigger issues with your installation.:roll:

In theory, ANYTHING can happen in ANY installation if done poorly enough.

You can't completely correct stupidity with legislation.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

That does not seem to follow common sense, which I find odd because the posts I usually read from you seem to be more common-sense oriented.

You may be technically correct and I'm sure you will update us on UL's answer, but I don't see any practical reason you could not put a screw in the side of a raco box that is more than 1/4 inch from the back of the box.

I would not recommend a fat hex-head as it just unnecessarily takes up space. I would also shun nails next to the device terminals and would also recommend using grip nails if you just have to use a nail instead of a screw.

What do you consider to be the practical danger?

I appreciate that comment, it shows you have a lot of common-sense.




The reason I have been told the screw or nail cannot be placed towards the front opening of a box is the likelyhood that the conductor will make contact and potentially create a hazard.

There are boxes today that are being designed with a ferrule/rib (?), in place to protect the conductor from making contact and creating a hazard; such as the Smart boxes, etc...

 

[mivey]

I appreciate that comment, it shows you have a lot of common-sense.




The reason I have been told the screw or nail cannot be placed towards the front opening of a box is the likelyhood that the conductor will make contact and potentially create a hazard.

There are boxes today that are being designed with a ferrule/rib (?), in place to protect the conductor from making contact and creating a hazard; such as the Smart boxes, etc...

Nonsense. I would say there is more chance for contact in the back of the box where you stuff the conductors.

If you are talking about terminal contact, why is a jiffy clip ok?

 

[infinity]

Nonsense. I would say there is more chance for contact in the back of the box where you stuff the conductors.

If you are talking about terminal contact, why is a jiffy clip ok?

You bring up a good point. The clips on an old work box has a better shot at contacting the device screw than one mounted in the side of the box. I almost agreed with this until I got to the part in 314.23 about passing through the box. A screw though the hole in the side at the front edge of the box is not passing through IMO.

314.23(B) Structural Mounting. An enclosure supported from a structural member of a building or from grade shall be rigidly supported either directly or by using a metal, polymeric, or wood brace.
(1) Nails and Screws. Nails and screws, where used as a fastening means, shall be attached by using brackets on the outside of the enclosure, or they shall pass through the interior within 6 mm (? in.) of the back or ends of the enclosure. Screws shall not be permitted to pass through the box unless exposed threads in the box are protected using approved means to avoid abrasion of conductor insulation.

 

[Buck Parrish]

That's why IMHO inspectors that have worked in the trade. Make better inspectors.
Because a lot of time good ole common sense is best.