Service grounded at the wrong place.

[partimer31]

Okay, I know a lot of you guys on this forum were around when Washington
was president. And some you may have had grandfather who wire it.

TOPIC

The house has an attach garage, on which an over service drop is
attach to it, by the local power company. An SE-U cable run along
the exterior wall, and right into the top of a Meter Socket, (connects to
the line side). Next the SE-U cable leave the Meter Socket, (connected
to the Load Side), and enter into the home owner garage. Inisde is single,
electrical box, with a 2-pole circuit breaker, rated at 100 amps. NO
grounding electrode wire is attach to the Neutral at this location.

The SE-U cable leaves this electrical box, with the 2-pole 100 amp. breaker,
and continues into the house basement.

There this SE-U cable connects to a Electrical Panel, XO Culter Hammer
circuit breaker panel box.

Here at this Circuit Breaker Panel box, which does not have a main breaker,
is really only a Main Lug Panel. The grounding electrode conductor enters
this panel box, and connect to the Neutral bus bar at this location.
All grounds and grounded wires are connected at the Neutral/Grounded
bus bar.

This house was built and wired around 1954.

Could this have a common practice back then?

And would the NEC code still allow this practice.

THANKS

"I was told, I will never know everything"

 

[construct]

If I understand your description correctly:

Grounding Electrode conductor should terminate in meterbase. Cable leaving 100A breaker box to lug thru panel in basement should have an Equipment Grounding Conductor ran with it. GroundED conductor should be separate from equipment grounds and NOT bonded to panel.

 

[RUWired]

And would the NEC code still allow this practice.

THANKS

What you have is a violation of 250.24(A)1 and (A)5. The GEC gets installed on the line side of the service disconnect only.

The panel inside the house most likely was a main fuse or main breaker at one time. The disconnect in the garage might also be an add on.

 

[hurk27]

you have two violations, grandfather laws are thrown out the door, when equipment has been upgraded, since this is a "54" era house, it most likely had fuses,, the box in the garage most likely was a fuse pull out(I could be wrong), and the panel was a branch circuit fuse panel, now that it was updated, it should have followed the code at that time, which I would say most likely would have required 4-wire from the garage disconnect to the basement, and the GEC conductor ran to either the garage disconnect or the service meter.

You could date the upgrade by researching the two breaker panels by their model # or look to see if they have a manufacture date on them, I'm not sure when it started to be a requirement for 4-wires to the sub panel, but I'm sure it was a long time ago, but with the upgrade info, maybe someone on here could give you an idea when these two codes was put in the NEC. we have a DC inspector on here also who could advise you also.

 

[LarryFine]

Grounding Electrode conductor should terminate in meterbase.

I believe the made electrode could, but water and anything else should terminate within the 100a disco in the garage.

And, yes, the feeder between the disco and the panel should be SER, and panel neutrals and EGC's separated, and the panel bonded to the EGC's, not the neutral bus.

 

[tryinghard]

...This house was built and wired around 1954. Could this have a common practice back then?...

Nope, but back then the equipment grounding was often either devoid, BX cover, or conduit type.

The neutral has never been allowed to parallel with non-current carrying items. With older homes comes the probability of non-qualified installer though.

 

[curt swartz]

I would guess the XO is the original equipment for 1954.

 

[hurk27]

I would guess the XO is the original equipment for 1954.

I don't think Cuttler Hamer made breaker panels for houses back then?

 

[ultramegabob]

XO was Square D

 

[Volta]

Secondary alternating-current circuits which are to be grounded shall have a connection to a grounding electrode at each individual service, except as provided for in section 2521. The connection shall be made on the supply side of the service disconnecting means. Each secondary distribution system which is grounded shall have at least one additional connection to a grounding electrode at the transformer or elsewhere. No connection to a grounding electrode shall be made to the grounded conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means, except as provided for in section 2524.

2521 is for objectionable currents. 2524 is for multiple buildings.

The grounded conductor on the supply side of the service disconnecting means may be used for grounding meter housing and service equipment. The grounded circuit conductor on the load side of the service disconnecting means shall not be used for grounding equipment, cable armor, or metal raceways except as provided in paragraph c of section 2557; and in section 2560.

2557 c is by special permision. 2560 is ranges and dryers.

 

[Volta]

I don't think Cuttler Hamer made breaker panels for houses back then?

I think they did. Yesterday's house was 1956 or 57 AFAIK, and it was CH style with the metal clips, original.

 

[tryinghard]

...Here at this Circuit Breaker SUBPanel box...All grounds and grounded wires are connected at the Neutral/Grounded bus bar.

And would the NEC code still allow this practice.

No this is also a violation of 250.142(B)

 

[njatc]

The panel in your garage is the main panel,and this is where the ground wires should connect.It should be a loop ground with no breaks in the wire(two ground rods). I would use#6 or#4 bare copper.At the house you also need at least 1 ground rod, and the wire should be sized at least a#6 bare copper conductor.You also need to run 4 wires to the house from the garage, and separate the neutrals from the grounds at the house panel.

 

[roger]

.It should be a loop ground with no breaks in the wire(two ground rods).

Why do you think this?

BTW, welcome to the forum.


Roger

 

[Dom99]

Hello:
I'm not sure if this is the proper thread to post this but here goes.
My name is Dominick. I'm 68 years old and a retiree from PECO a utility company. I installed electric and gas appliances, converted "A" base meters to socket base, worked couple of years in the underground dept. and became an electric and gas detailer.

I'm working for my brother,(licensed electrican, one man operation), he had both knees replaced and has limited mobility so I do the attic, crawspace and ladder climbing. I looked at the NEC code book and found it just as confusing as the federal tax code. I recently enrolled in Mike Holt's basic electrical theory and will move up from there.

Viewing some of Mike's free videos I was surprised to find that installing a ground rod at a metal pole is not only not an effective ground fault path but now made the ground rod hot and won't trip the breaker because the electrons must return to the source of supply.

My questions are:
1- If the above is true why then do you need a ground rod at the main panel?
2- What could happen with out it? We have done numerous service upgrades and found most did not have a ground rod.

TIA,

Dom

 

[George Stolz]

I'm 68 years old...

...he had both knees replaced and has limited mobility so I do the attic, crawspace and ladder climbing.

Let me be the first to say [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

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1- If the above is true why then do you need a ground rod at the main panel?

Lightning and unintentional contact with higher voltage lines.

2- What could happen with out it? We have done numerous service upgrades and found most did not have a ground rod.

Without it, you'd have a higher risk for damage during a lightning storm.

 

[Dom99]

Thx for your reply. That makes sense and after I posted it a web page came up by you that explained it thoroughly. My brother just said lightning and walks away, but that not's good enough for me.

Now if I can trouble you to clear up this one more puzzle. When installing a residential sub-panel the grounded conductor bar,(neutral), is isolated from the grounding bar because the sub-panel equip. grounds are go back to the main panel's grounded neutral bar.

My question is why are they separated when both of the sub-panels neutrals and grounds are going back to the same main panel's grounded conductor bar?

TIA,

Dom

 

[George Stolz]

Otherwise you'd have neutral current flowing on the equipment grounding conductor (EGC) of the feeder.

 

[norcal]

XO was Square D

Cutler-Hammer made XO panels also, locally there are 50's subdivisions with C-H XO panels.