Troffers in a 12'-high suspended ceiling

[LarryFine]

Hey, guys. How much do you think you would charge for unpacking 2x4 fluorescent fixtures, taking them up in a lift, installing them, and wiring them? Plus, whips and tubes.

Details:
It's a fairly good repeat customer, friendly haggling on occasion, but no problems in a couple of years. He's supplying fixtures, MC, fittings, rental lift, etc.

There have been no problem with him supplying materials in the past. He'll get what I ask for, quickly and correctly, and reimburse what I supply plus mark-up.

It's in a commercial space, a store in a strip mall they now own, about a dozen office rooms, most w/2 lts, 2 w/4, a large central area, and an L-shaped hallway.

There are 90 lights, 8 are shown with egress/night-light ballasts and wiring, but he wants separate egress lights, so he'll likely have that change approved, maybe not.


What I'm asking for is not so much how much you'd charge (although I wouldn't mind the info), but how long you'd charge per fixture timewise, to come up with a price.

As always, thanx!

 

[Cow]

You solo or do you have a helper to unpack and stage the lights for you?

I hope you have a helper, it'd be a lot faster with him handing you up lights. I hate climbing up and down a lift.

Do you have to shoot ceiling wire?

 

[chris kennedy]

You solo or do you have a helper to unpack and stage the lights for you?

Larry happens to be married to his helper.

Not enough info Larry, how much junk to move, what hours can you work in these stores, shut down one office now working by temp light...

 

[LarryFine]

You solo or do you have a helper to unpack and stage the lights for you?

See Chris' response. Two, actually, including her and my son.

I hate climbing up and down a lift.

That's a scaffold; the lift goes up and down. Added: Okay, up to me in the lift. Got it.

Do you have to shoot ceiling wire?

No. We just use the fixture-end clips to attach to the grid. (I will check with the insp.)

 

[LarryFine]

Larry happens to be married to his helper.

She's the best helper I've ever had.

Not enough info Larry, how much junk to move, what hours can you work in these stores, shut down one office now working by temp light...

This is a gutted building. It's unoccupied, and the floors will be cleared for me. (They want to save money by having their grunt labor done in-house.)

They just put up new walls with J-boxes atop, in-wall rough wiring already in. I will pull home-runs and switched whips, don't need help with that part. (Yet )

 

[hurk27]

If they were pre-whipped and lamped, I would say 8 or 10 fixtures per hour on a good day maybe more, but if your whipping them big slow down, I always specify pre whip, worth the $5 or $6 dollars more per fixture

 

[bradleyelectric]

If they were pre-whipped and lamped, I would say 8 or 10 fixtures per hour on a good day maybe more, but if your whipping them big slow down, I always specify pre whip, worth the $5 or $6 dollars more per fixture

6 minutes to move lift in place, unpack fixture, take it up on lift, put it in ceiling, support it and wire it?

 

[LarryFine]

6 minutes to move lift in place, unpack fixture, take it up on lift, put it in ceiling, support it and wire it?

Nobody pays me enough to work that hard.

 

[hurk27]

6 minutes to move lift in place, unpack fixture, take it up on lift, put it in ceiling, support it and wire it?

Yea I wasn't thinking, we usually gang up on these, and I was thinking 2x4 foot lay-in type, troffer are a little more work, lay-ins just get laid up in the grid, and wired, we get them already bulb and whipped. we never have to add wires. also when we do them we set up a production line with 4 workers, two removing from carton, and one laying up and one wiring, it goes fast. we did 160 in two days at a large office one time.

Nobody pays me enough to work that hard.

Yea if you have to take apart and whip, then bulb and then mount to the grid, you might get 3 to 4 an hour with one person whipping them and one mounting, and lamping, then the last person wiring. but then having the one on the lift to do everything will take more time. and if the ceiling tiles are already in place it gets even slower. great when you have all open grid, I just hate those diffusers, you use on troffer's, thats why we only use 2x4 lay-ins or 2x2 U tube lay-ins.

I just don't under stand about the extra wires, I have never had to add extra support wires? 410.16 doesn't mention having to add extra support wires and of course troff's need to be screwed to the rails, we used self drilling metal stud screws for that.

 

[bradleyelectric]

you might get 3 to 4 an hour with one person whipping them and one mounting, and lamping, then the last person wiring.

That equals 30-45 minutes per fixture if we are talking about 2 people. If this means 3 people your talking 1/hr-45min.

I usually go with 1hr/ fixture and 20hr/ 1000 for the MC for a rough number.

 

[LarryFine]

. . . I was thinking 2x4 foot lay-in type, troffer are a little more work, lay-ins just get laid up in the grid, and wired, we get them already bulb and whipped.

My bad. I think of lay-ins and troffers as the same thing. What's the difference?

we did 160 in two days at a large office one time.

That's 80/day, or 10/hr, or 1 every 6 minutes. There's no way we even want to try to move that fast.

Yea if you have to take apart and whip, then bulb and then mount to the grid, you might get 3 to 4 an hour with one person whipping them and one mounting, and lamping, then the last person wiring.

We'll only have one lift to use, and we'll loop from fixture to fixture, meanin MC instead of pre-made whips.

but then having the one on the lift to do everything will take more time. and if the ceiling tiles are already in place it gets even slower. great when you have all open grid, I just hate those diffusers, you use on troffer's, thats why we only use 2x4 lay-ins or 2x2 U tube lay-ins.

The grid should be open, but again, these troffers should be lay-ins.

I just don't under stand about the extra wires, I have never had to add extra support wires? 410.16 doesn't mention having to add extra support wires and of course troff's need to be screwed to the rails, we used self drilling metal stud screws for that.

The lay-ins I see these days have integral grid clips which work fine as long as you bend them out correctly.

 

[Power Tech]

A lot of factors (pay rates, 1, 2 lifts, job schedule, how big and strong, motivated, do the men wear their tools) for calculating not included to give you a quote per fixture.

Sometimes I look at a job that is a typical, and say, "2 men and I will be here for a week".

Good things: Your parts are paid. You work too. If your wrong, you can stay on the lift late. Finish early and you have the option of giving a credit to the customer.

 

[LarryFine]

That equals 30-45 minutes per fixture if we are talking about 2 people. If this means 3 people your talking 1/hr-45min.

Why is it slower with 3 people than with 2?

I usually go with 1hr/ fixture and 20hr/ 1000 for the MC for a rough number.

If I ask for $100 per fixture, he's gonna be ill. I was thinking 30 minutes each. It is 12 feet up, after all.

 

[LarryFine]

Finish early and you have the option of giving a credit to the customer.

Funny you mention that. A couple of years ago, we priced doing another job with him. I explained that I'm basing the cost on educated guesses about difficulty.

He asked if I would lower the price if it went quicker than I estimated. I asked if I could charge more if it took longer. He said "Of course not!" and then smiled.

That's what I mean by friendly haggling. He asks for cheaper, I ask for more, we settle. But, we get along fine. If it was bad, I wouldn't be looking at this job.

 

[fridaymean]

Yea I wasn't thinking, we usually gang up on these, and I was thinking 2x4 foot lay-in type, troffer are a little more work, lay-ins just get laid up in the grid, and wired, we get them already bulb and whipped. we never have to add wires. also when we do them we set up a production line with 4 workers, two removing from carton, and one laying up and one wiring, it goes fast. we did 160 in two days at a large office one time.



Yea if you have to take apart and whip, then bulb and then mount to the grid, you might get 3 to 4 an hour with one person whipping them and one mounting, and lamping, then the last person wiring. but then having the one on the lift to do everything will take more time. and if the ceiling tiles are already in place it gets even slower. great when you have all open grid, I just hate those diffusers, you use on troffer's, thats why we only use 2x4 lay-ins or 2x2 U tube lay-ins.

I just don't under stand about the extra wires, I have never had to add extra support wires? 410.16 doesn't mention having to add extra support wires and of course troff's need to be screwed to the rails, we used self drilling metal stud screws for that.

That is 4 men - 160 in two days, or 4X8X2 = 64 hours 160/64 hours = 2.5/hour or 24 minutes apiece. Sounds close for prelamps/pre whip Don't forget mobilization / set-up / clean-up is included in the fixture / hour estimate.

 

[satcom]

I just don't under stand about the extra wires, I have never had to add extra support wires? 410.16 doesn't mention having to add extra support wires and of course troff's need to be screwed to the rails, we used self drilling metal stud screws for that.

The fixtures need seperate wire supports, and also the the cables need to be supported with their own support wires, and secured to the grid these have been the rules for a long time, and some areas require additional clips. there is a lot of work involved in installing fixtures to codes, and don't forget there are other codes that apply, not just electrical.

 

[Power Tech]

Funny you mention that. A couple of years ago, we priced doing another job with him. I explained that I'm basing the cost on educated guesses about difficulty.

He asked if I would lower the price if it went quicker than I estimated. I asked if I could charge more if it took longer. He said "Of course not!" and then smiled.

That's what I mean by friendly haggling. He asks for cheaper, I ask for more, we settle. But, we get along fine. If it was bad, I wouldn't be looking at this job.

I'll use that.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Why is it slower with 3 people than with 2?

If I ask for $100 per fixture, he's gonna be ill. I was thinking 30 minutes each. It is 12 feet up, after all.

Because my head hurts today and a messed up third grade math on that 1. 1 man hour devided by 2 equals .5 hour each fixture. 1 man hour devided by 3 equals .33 hour each fixture. 90 fixtures x 2 men= 90x.5=45 hours to do the job for 2 people 90 fixtures x 3 men= 30 hours scheduled. No disrespect to the better half with the manhours reference. I usually allow 15' of MC per fixture 15x90=1500' mc=30manhours= 15hours for 2 people. I know, but I'm buying 6 250' coils of MC, so that's what I charge to install. The only time I divide the manhours by people on the job is to develope the schedule.

I only look at estimating as manhours. It is 1 manhour for a layin. If you charge $100/ per hour for 2 people and are figuring 30 minutes for each fixture with 2 of you working on it than your looking at 2x30 minutes. Yes we could both probably beat that consistantly. If we were to send an average journeyman and an apprentice to do it, maybe not. I bid everything using average manhours and know darn well I'm going to beat if if I'm on the job, but why shouldn't I reap the reward of my work ethic?

Of course your ideas and mileage may vary.

 

[Power Tech]

why shouldn't I reap the reward of my work ethic.




I agree 500%. You deserve it!

Hate slackers.

 

[LarryFine]

Sounds like $50 per fixture, including wiring each with one whip to the previous fixture or the wall-top J-box over each switch. That comes to $4500 for what should be about a week's worth of work, or $900 per day including drive time.

Then, I have to figure each switch's J-box feed from the previous box (daisy-chained) or the home-run, and eight (according to the plans) home-runs. I'll probably call making up each J-box 15 minutes and each home-run an hour.