Inspectors, will you pass or fail this?

Status
Not open for further replies.

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
A physically properly installed feeder consisting of a type W cable for a 200-amp load. Pin terminals used at the breaker and lugs used at the load. Termination points are all rated 75C.

Feeder is sized per 400.5(B) 75C column E since it is single-phase and only 2 CCCs (207-amp ampacity).

Will you fail it for 110.14(C)(1) ?
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
I'm no inspector but...

You say 'feeder' and reference column 'E'. Thats for:

2The ampacities under subheading E apply to two-conductor cables and other multiconductor cables connected to utilization equipment so that only two conductors are current-carrying.

Therefore a branch circuit. You also say 207A. I don't see that in the 08. What size wire and what are you getting at Lou?
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Another non-inspector-
But I think Chris is right about the note to column E to connect to utilization equip.
I do see the 207 amp rating for 1/0, but are you able to meet 400.7 in the first place?
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
I'm no inspector but...

You say 'feeder' and reference column 'E'. Thats for:

2The ampacities under subheading E apply to two-conductor cables and other multiconductor cables connected to utilization equipment so that only two conductors are current-carrying.

Therefore a branch circuit. You also say 207A. I don't see that in the 08. What size wire and what are you getting at Lou?


Thanks for responding Chris. I don't know how I left out the 1/0 size for the W cable. I reworded it and I guess I deleted it.

You highlighted the utilization equipment, does that have a significant meaning? (checking the definitions page next).
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
You highlighted the utilization equipment, does that have a significant meaning? (checking the definitions page next).

Maybe not if type W comes in a 2 conductor cable. Never seen this, so my first post was poorly worded. I should have asked for a link to this type of cable. If you don't have one then your install would fall under column D.
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
I don't see any trouble with 110.14, but the link you provided shows the ampacity of 1/0 to be 186. While we know that 400.5 will allow 207, you might need to look at the 2/0.
 

dana1028

Senior Member
I don't see any trouble with 110.14, but the link you provided shows the ampacity of 1/0 to be 186. While we know that 400.5 will allow 207, you might need to look at the 2/0.

As long as his load does not exceed 186A, he is permitted the next higher breaker.

PS - I'd pass it.
 
Last edited:

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
As long as his load does not exceed 186A, he is permitted the next higher breaker.

PS - I'd pass it.
OP did say 200 amp load.:)

The notes at the bottom say it's the rating at 90C cable and 40C ambient.

Column F of 400.5(B) for 1/0 is 205. Use the .91 multiplier for 40C and you get 186.5, looks like they rounded down.
Sounds reasonable. If the load is not over that 186 amp limit, looks ok to me.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
OP did say 200 amp load.:)


Sounds reasonable. If the load is not over that 186 amp limit, looks ok to me.

May I present this perspective.

Column E may be used since there are only 2 CCCs. Column E at 90C for 1/0 is 234. 234*.91 for ambient temp correction = 212.9. So the 75C rating for column E of 207 would be allowed?
 

Volta

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, Ohio
May I present this perspective.

Column E may be used since there are only 2 CCCs. Column E at 90C for 1/0 is 234. 234*.91 for ambient temp correction = 212.9. So the 75C rating for column E of 207 would be allowed?

I feel ok with those calc's. It all seems good, the only thing I would like to know is why the columns' E and F's notes specify "utilization equipment".

Section 555.13(B)(4)(a)(5)(b) specifically mentions Portable Power Cables to be used as feeders. It seems unlikely that they could only be allowed to used as feeders when single conductor rather than multi-conductor. I would like those notes rewritten without the "utilization" terminology.

That said, I think it meets the intent fully. :)
 

chris kennedy

Senior Member
Location
Miami Fla.
Occupation
60 yr old tool twisting electrician
Lou, what you saying is that although 1/0 Type W has sufficient ampacity a 3/0 Type W would still need to be used to meet;

Section 110.14(C)(1) states that where conductors are terminated in equipment, the selected conductor ampacities must be based on Table 310.16, unless the equipment is specifically listed and marked otherwise. The intent of this requirement is to clarify which ampacities are used to determine the proper conductor size at equipment terminations.
When equipment of 600 volts or less is evaluated relative to the appropriate temperature characteristics of the terminations, conductors sized according to Table 310.16 are required to be used. The UL General Information Directory (White Book) clearly indicates that the 60?C and 75?C provisions for equipment have been determined using conductors from Table 310.16. However, installers or designers unaware of the UL guide card information might attempt to select conductors based on a table other than Table 310.16, especially if a wiring method that allows the use of ampacities such as those in Table 310.17 is used. That use can result in overheated terminations at the equipment. Clearly, the ampacities shown in other tables (such as Table 310.17) could be used for various conditions to which the wiring method is subject (ambient, ampacity correction, etc.), but the conductor size at the termination must be based on ampacities from Table 310.16. This change does not introduce any new impact on the equipment or the wiring methods; it simply adds a rule from the listing information into the Code because it is an installation and equipment selection issue.
Quote from 08 NECHB commentary.
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
Lou, what you saying is that although 1/0 Type W has sufficient ampacity a 3/0 Type W would still need to be used to meet;

Quote from 08 NECHB commentary.

Exactly, so now the question is, is the NECHB correct about type W cable or is the construction of type W cable make it a better heat sink and the termination point will be fine if using the 75C rating of table 400.5(B)?

Anyone who is educated on this topic is pleased asked to comment.

(The way it stands now, all of the marinas wired in this area for the last 15 years are wrong).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top