Bonding the copper plumbing in a dwelling.?

[jxofaltrds]

I'm saying that requirement went by the way side ,.. in today's world it is almost impossible to expect that a piping system will remain electrically continuous from one given point to the next... so they have seemed to settle on 5' of it ,... heck they don't even expect that to remain metal ,hence the supplemental electrode

The 5' is for the connection to the electrode and has nothing to do with bonding. Yes it does bond but two different code sections.

Yes the tape and pipe dope references are NOT good and I retract those.

Nobody said bonding at the hot water tank. Just the 'seperate' hot and cold waterlines. Only done at the tank because it is easy to find.

 

[M. D.]

Substantiation: Nonmetallic water piping systems are being inserted between
our metal water piping system and today?s code is not recognizing these
changes.

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: The conditions indicated in the substantiation are already
covered by 250.104(B) where there is not a complete metallic water piping
system.

If it is a complete metallic system ,. then it is completely metallic ,.. and there is no need to bond that which is already bonded ,...If it is not ,..then the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit feeding whatever it is that is likely to energize the piping is all that is required by 250.104(b),.


In this proposal it is suggested that there are two systems one plastic the other metal ,. the code making panel sees it as one system ,.. you seem to suggest that there are two systems one hot and one cold ,.. I think based on the CMP statements ,.. that there is one.

If for whatever reason it is not a complete metallic system then 250.104(b) is all that is required. That clearly seems to be the CMP's opinion anyway.

 

[augie47]

This leads to one of my favorite unanswered questions. 250.104(A)(1) tells us the bonding jumper to a metallic water line shall, in most cases, be sized per 250.66. Bonding other metallic piping is sized per 250.122.
If the metallic water piping is not a grounding electrode (as is often the case her with PVC underground), why does it require a 250.66 jumper ??

 

[jxofaltrds]

Let us start with the definition of Plumbing System:

"Includes the water supply and distribution pipes, plumbing fixtures, supports and appurtenances; soil, waste and vent pipes; sanitary drains and building sewers to an approved point of disposal."

Now to 250.104(A)(1) General. Metal water piping system(s)*****. The bonding jumper(s)****.

I believe that the hot water and cold water are seperate systems. In the Plumbing Code Chapter 6 SECTION 607 HOT WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM. If I believe that they were one system then a hot/cold jumper would not be required.

I just thought of a condition that I would not require that jumper. A dishwasher with copper supply. Then that egc would be the bond.

But what if there is no dishwasher? But there is a disposal? Could the disposal cord come in contact with the hot waterlines? Maybe.

Now to 90.1(A) Practical Safeguarding. Would considering potential hazards be a good practice? I believe so.

In Ohio I must look at this:

"101.4 Reasonable application.

The rules of the board and proceedings shall be liberally construed in order to promote its purpose. When the residential building official finds that the proposed design is a reasonable interpretation of the provisions of this code, it shall be approved. Materials, equipment and devices approved by the building official pursuant to Section 116 shall be constructed and installed in accordance with such approval."

Liberally is not just for the installer but also applies for homeowner safety. (IMHO)

Here is a reference plumbers must use:

"601.3 Existing piping used for grounding.

Existing metallic water service piping used for electrical grounding shall not be replaced with nonmetallic pipe or tubing until other approved means of grounding is provided."

I believe this means bonding also. (IMHO)

Now back to the definition. Would copper waste need to be bonded? I say no. Not likely to become energized.

Again this is how I look at it.

 

[M. D.]

This leads to one of my favorite unanswered questions. 250.104(A)(1) tells us the bonding jumper to a metallic water line shall, in most cases, be sized per 250.66. Bonding other metallic piping is sized per 250.122.
If the metallic water piping is not a grounding electrode (as is often the case her with PVC underground), why does it require a 250.66 jumper ??

They may change the feed line to copper Are we sure it would be considered a complete metallic water system with a plastic feed ..

I found this at The ICC bulletin board thought it was consistant with the above CMP statements

Anyway, according to panel 5, if the sprinkler piping is a metal system it is a 250.104(A) (water) installation. If it is broken up with nonconductive couplings, it is a 250.104(B) (other) installation.

--------------------
Ryan Jackson
Salt Lake City
Inspector, Instructor,
Code Consultant

 

[dana1028]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elect...ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc

A lot has been said about hot & cold being separate systems...so be it.

The NEC Handbook, as previously stated, says: "Where it cannot be reasonably concluded that the hot and cold water pipes are reliably bonded through mechanical connections..."

Everywhere else in the code we accept threaded fittings as satisfactorily connecting components together - what seems to be the problem with the threaded connection at shower/tub valves?

I'm concluding that jxofaltrds is an inspector - as such you must see the shower/tub valve at all rough inspections; are you suggesting the hot and cold water 'systems' threaded into the valve do not make a mechanical connection?

The above photo is from a new installation, however I have seen almost identical valves, with respect to type of connection, in plumbing from the 1940's [just in case you are concerned with existing connections]. This type of mechanical connection of hot-cold at a shower valve has not changed in over 70 years [sorry, didn't take a picture of the 1940's valve].

I too am an inspector, and for the life of me I cannot bring myself to make an electrician do work that is not required by the code - that is what makes these forum discussions so valuable.

- I posted the above link to a photo because I cannot figure out any other way to get a photo here - my user control panel has no link to 'pictures & albums'.

 

[LarryFine]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/elect...ode=tn&order=ordinal&start=1&count=20&dir=asc - I posted the above link to a photo because I cannot figure out any other way to get a photo here - my user control panel has no link to 'pictures & albums'.

When making a response, hover over the various control icons at the top of the Message window, under Title. Use the paper clip (Attachments) or the picture box (Insert Image) tools.

If you don't see them, enter your control panel and select Edit Options from the Settings and Options box. At the bottom of that page, in Miscellaneous Options, select Enhanced Interface.

 

[dana1028]

Thank you Larry

 

[jxofaltrds]

"Because many plumbing fixtures use nonmetallic components, bonding both the hot and cold piping systems helps ensure that both are electrically continuous."

From: http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=1824

I know it says "helps". But it also says "ensure".

I do not think that requiring the jumper is unreasonable.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Even plumbers understand this.

"Besides the problem of dielectric connections to the inlet and outlet of water heaters, many modern water heaters do not present an electrical connection between the inlet and outlet pipes (they are made of non-conductive materials that will interrupt the ground circuit from the electric service panel to the cold water supply). Therefore it is essential to run a jumper bond around the water heater by connecting the hot and cold water pipes. Maybe this is something that's just required here in California, but I doubt it. Anyone else want to chime in?"

"Well, I have been plumbing since 1972, and I have to admit that I was not taught about this electrical issue by my plumbing mentors. I learned about it from my electrical colleagues. Of course I thought about it and it made very good sense. I guess we can always learn something from the other trades.
NtP "


From: http://www.masterplumbers.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6559

 

[cschmid]

If it is a complete metallic system ,. then it is completely metallic ,.. and there is no need to bond that which is already bonded ,...If it is not ,..then the equipment grounding conductor of the circuit feeding whatever it is that is likely to energize the piping is all that is required by 250.104(b),.


In this proposal it is suggested that there are two systems one plastic the other metal ,. the code making panel sees it as one system ,.. you seem to suggest that there are two systems one hot and one cold ,.. I think based on the CMP statements ,.. that there is one.

If for whatever reason it is not a complete metallic system then 250.104(b) is all that is required. That clearly seems to be the CMP's opinion anyway.

where is my magnifier..




Now I have to agree and disagree here.

If the water line entering is plastic you need two ground rods...

yet if they use copper i do agree it must be bonded and you probably should us a jumper to the hot as most of the fixtures are plastic.

Yet I do not see a code requiring it and nor should they consider it as most plumbing is going to blue and red plastic lines..

 

[iwire]

"I do not think that requiring the jumper is unreasonable.

An inspector requiring anything more then what the NEC requires is unreasonable, unprofessional and I bet against the law.

 

[iwire]

Even plumbers understand this.

"Besides the problem of dielectric connections to the inlet and outlet of water heaters, many modern water heaters do not present an electrical connection between the inlet and outlet pipes (they are made of non-conductive materials that will interrupt the ground circuit from the electric service panel to the cold water supply). Therefore it is essential to run a jumper bond around the water heater by connecting the hot and cold water pipes. Maybe this is something that's just required here in California, but I doubt it. Anyone else want to chime in?"

"Well, I have been plumbing since 1972, and I have to admit that I was not taught about this electrical issue by my plumbing mentors. I learned about it from my electrical colleagues. Of course I thought about it and it made very good sense. I guess we can always learn something from the other trades.
NtP "


From: http://www.masterplumbers.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6559

Mike ........ you really did not just use a plumbing forum to back your view of an NEC question? :roll:

I can not begin to believe that one. :grin:


M.D. has provided rock solid info straight from the CMPs, I really wish you would try to look at those with an open mind instead of just going with the 'we always do it that way' reasoning.

There is simply no NEC requirement to have a bonding jumper located at every water heater. The metal water system must be bonded, the NEC leaves it to installer to decide how that is accomplished.

 

[jxofaltrds]

An inspector requiring anything more then what the NEC requires is unreasonable, unprofessional and I bet against the law.

Bob

You are correct.

I should have said that my interpretation is reasonable. I always start with 90.1

 

[jxofaltrds]

Bob

Again you are correct.

If the installer, the one installing the plumbing system(s), thinks it is necessary shouldn't we take that into consideration?

 

[iwire]

Mike you lost me.

Say I just wired a single family dwelling, it is stick built from wood and all domestic water lines are copper including the supply from the water dept.

I have used a uffer and the water line as my grounding electrode system.

It has a an electric hot water heater but I have not installed a bonding jumper from the cold to hot lines at this water heater.

Do I pass or get a red tag from you?

Please cite the NEC section on the red tag.

I always start with 90.1

There is nothing in 90.1 that applies to the above question.

 

[al hildenbrand]

Even plumbers understand this.

Besides the problem of dielectric connections to the inlet and outlet of water heaters, many modern water heaters do not present an electrical connection between the inlet and outlet pipes (they are made of non-conductive materials that will interrupt the ground circuit from the electric service panel to the cold water supply). . . .

From: http://www.masterplumbers.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=6559

A reasonable sounding statement sure doesn't make the statement correct.

The water heater has never been in the path of the Grounding Electrode Conductor going to the buried metal water pipe, even when the connection of the wire GEC was permitted at the closest convenient cold water pipe to the location of the electrical service disconnect.

 

[dana1028]

"Because many plumbing fixtures use nonmetallic components, bonding both the hot and cold piping systems helps ensure that both are electrically continuous."

From: http://www.iaei.org/magazine/?p=1824

I know it says "helps". But it also says "ensure".

I agree, many plumbing fixtures use nonmetallic components...but that is irrelevent.

The NEC does not require hot and cold water piping to be bonded together at every fixture...it only requires a single mechanical connection between the two systems at any point within the structure; this is achieved at the shower/tub valve. Every such valve in America is a solid cast housing; if you have a metal water piping system these pipes connect mechanically to the solid metal housing of the valve.

Why would you need to establish additional bonds elsewhwere within the same system just because other fixtures are nonmetallic? You seem to be argueing that because 'some' plumbing fixture may be nonmetallic then those shower/tub valves that are metallic are negated.

You were quoting plumbers [I am a licensed plumbing contractor too], ask them if they have ever seen a nonmetallic shower/tub valve. There may be some nonmetallic components inside the solid metal housing, but that does not negate the solid metal mechanical connection from metal pipe to housing.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Unless the jurisdiction the EI is working in mandates and provides training, EIs should not be performing electrical testing. He/she can witness a test by the electrician, and ask for documentation if it is necessary.

Reading any documentation to learn and help support one's learning is a good thing, but should not be relied other than that, as one is reading another's opinion; even the handbook is an opinion, as Jeff Sargent (one of the authors of the Handbook) mentioned to us this past week at the Eastern Section meeting.

The NEC Code and local Codes are the documentation that has the final say. Sometimes the wording is difficult and other times it is easy. But that is the task at hand for inspectors and others who use the Codes for determination of requirements.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Mike you lost me.

Say I just wired a single family dwelling, it is stick built from wood and all domestic water lines are copper including the supply from the water dept.

I have used a uffer and the water line as my grounding electrode system.

It has a an electric hot water heater but I have not installed a bonding jumper from the cold to hot lines at this water heater.

Do I pass or get a red tag from you?

Please cite the NEC section on the red tag.




There is nothing in 90.1 that applies to the above question.

?There is nothing in 90.1 that applies to the above question.?

It applies to everything. It is the purpose of the code. It is the first statement in the code. Why do you think that it is first?

Yes you would fail. 250.104(B). And it does not have to be bonded ?at? the hot water tank.

(A) First I do not think that the cold or hot waterlines need to be bonded at all. Why? If they were properly installed they are NOT likely to be energized. Just MHO.

(B) But we all know that the industry, everyone in the trade, bonds the cold waterlines. Same as we ?jumper? the water meter. No code requirement for jumping the water meter.

So if you objected to my failing (red tag) you, here is how it would play out.

1. As the ESI (Electrical Safety Inspector) I would ask my RBO (Residential Building Official) the AHJ. (I am a RBO)
2. Next he would ask the RPI (Residential Plumbing Inspector), are the cold and hot water pipes different systems? (I am a RPI)
3. The RPI would say yes because there is no requirement to have a hot water piping system. Just hot water.
4. The RPI would use Chapter 607 of the plumbing code to prove the hot water pipes (lines) are a separate system.
5. The RBO would make a decision.
6. The RBO would tell me to treat these as separate systems.
7. Then I would explain to you that ?all? other metal piping ?shall? be bonded.

End of story. Yes you have a right to appeal but I doubt if you could rebut, and win on, my opinions.