Question about this contract

[quogueelectric]

Hello all! I am new member to this forum, however I have lurked for a while and appreciate all the information I have learned from this place. I am an electrical contractor in Arizona, working mostly in the Phoenix metro area. I have been a contractor for a few years, and rarely have problems with contracts or customers.

If anyone can help me out with this one, I would really appreciate it!

I had a man call me for a bid on a new SES to replace this sixty year old system that was on this 1946 home. He wanted to get the utility to hook up to a home he had just purchased on an online auction. Utility would not hook up to the existing setup. Obviously, the system was outdated, not up to code, and upon seeing it my thought was, "wow, this thing is old!".

So I gave him a bid to do a replacement with a 200 amp meter/panel. I asked him if he was remodeling the home and was getting permits in addition to this electric work. He said no, he was just replacing some cabinets and repairing drywall and no permit was going to be obtained for this work...so this was NOT a home remodel. So, I took his word on this and realized the home's electric system would be grandfathered in and since no work was going to be taking place on the inside I would replace the service and hook up his circuits, get inspected, and get his electric back on. I also sold him some GFIs for the new counter tops he was going to install in his kitchen.

I showed up to meet the owner and he had modified my contract I emailed him for review. He added that if I missed anything on this job that the inspector would require, I would be responsible for the labor and materials for the work. I thought it was wrong he modified my contract but also felt that I know all the codes as I have done many panel changeouts before and covered all my bases.

While working at his home on his panel, all sorts of contractors started appearing. Knocking out walls, building fences, tearing off the roof, demolishing the carport and rebuilding it. All this was no permitting from any agency. I called the owner and asked him what was going on. He said he is simply repairing things and needed no permits..this was not a home remodel.

The next day I called for my inspection. The city of Phoenix inspector came out and his first words to me were, "What is going on here!". I said to him I was the electrician hired to do the panel and I don't have any idea who all these contractors were and I just wanted him to inspect my work.

To make the rest of the story short- the inspector stopped all those contractors and said this was a home REMODEL and all work needed permits. He asked me if anything in the homes' electric was out of code, and I told him it ALL was. He said, well this is a home remodel and it will all need to be replaced.

Again, when I took this job it was NOT a home remodel and I bid it to do the panel. Remember the clause that "anything inspector wants that I failed to perform would be my responsibility". This contract was signed before any permits for remodel and before any other work had started. I even called the city to make sure this was not a home remodel and they said that no permits were taken out....leaving me comfortable to think that I would be the only work and would get my inspection on the panel and the rest of the home would be grandfathered in...old or not.

The customer is telling me that my contract states I am responsible to get the electric on...and am responsible for whatever the inspector wants.

Am I going to be forced to rewire a whole house for the price of a panel changeout?

No judges tend to be intelligent persons when you show him what this clown is trying to pull on you he will surely throw it out. Unfortunately it looks as if you will have to go to court one day for this one. Keep good records take lots of pictures. Get witnesses also.

 

[celtic]

You really need to re-read what the OP has posted:



"whatever" leads you to believe it is limited to ONLY the service itself with no interior wiring affected?

Third post second paragraph

Lets look at the preceding paragraph as well:

Coppertone, thanks for the reply. My contract has no verbage to indicate anything along the lines of "anything required to pass the entire home's electric system is the responsibility of the EC." My contract stated number by number exactly what I was going to do. (i.e. panel, gfi's, dryer outlet). I stated that all work performed would be done to local and NEC codes. When I met the owner he had added a line that reads specifically,

"If any of the work done by EC is found by Utility and City inspectors not to pass inspection it shall be the responsibility of the EC for parts and labor to effect repairs in a timely manner. This shall also include any repair or replacement, not in this work order, which is found not to meet the inspector's code requirements."

The OP has indicated what IS in the work order, the client has "attempted" to expanded that to include items NOT in the scope of the contract.

....and you really truly believe the client is not trying to pull a fast one?
....in spite of numerous other posters comments conflicting with your belief?

WOW

 

[Sierrasparky]

Scam is written all over this.
Especially when the owner states that he wants the EC to carry out the repairs at the EC expense.
There are ways to deal with these guys. I hop the OP takes the Owner to the cleaners and then some.
There is fraud all over this. 3
:-?

 

[AV ELECTRIC]

Lets look at the preceding paragraph as well:


The OP has indicated what IS in the work order, the client has "attempted" to expanded that to include items NOT in the scope of the contract.

....and you really truly believe the client is not trying to pull a fast one?
....in spite of numerous other posters comments conflicting with your belief?

WOW

yes Best way is to discuss this in person with the customer.Going to court should be the last thing on the list confrontation will cost you money . The customer has to get this house done. Its costing him money unsold or vacant everyday .The Ec has all the cards. Be professional and know what your talking about and in most cases you will be successful

 

[celtic]

yes Best way is to discuss this in person with the customer.

You still haven't grasped that it is beyond that stage....

The customer is telling me that my contract states I am responsible to get the electric on...and am responsible for whatever the inspector wants.

I immediately called the homeowner with the bad news and he simply told me that the clause that I would perform the replacement of whatever inspector needs sticks!

Going to court should be the last thing on the list confrontation will cost you money .

I agree....however....the threat of court is sometimes enough to straighten a potential deadbeat out.
This customer sounds like a professional deadbeat and will not sweat a threat...his heart rate will not even increase when served with a "Notice to Appear".

The customer has to get this house done. Its costing him money unsold or vacant everyday .The Ec has all the cards. Be professional and know what your talking about and in most cases you will be successful

He'll get it done...the next EC will fall into a similar trap.
No way I would even consider being a party to this customer's nonsense.

Being professional also involves having papers delivered to a deadbeat for his day in court....if it all works out before then, the case can be dismissed....no hard feelings - your actions brought it upon yourself.
NOT filing within allotted time frames is the mark of an amateur.

 

[AzVoltage]

First, I would like to thank EVERYONE for the replies to my post. I have gained a lot of insight as to my situation from all of you.

I called the homeowner this afternoon. He told me he drove up to Phoenix from his home in Tucson (job is in Phoenix) and went to the Phoenix Development office. He brought in a "general contractor" that he has decided to hire to get him through this mess that he got himself into. The inspector had the day off today, but the supervisor told them that they would have an opportunity to schedule a metting with the inspector to see exactly what is needed here. I checked online and my inspection was failed not on my work or the panel, but by all the unpermitted work going on at the jobsite. In fact, the inspector spent very little time at my work and was asking around about the different projects that were obviously at hand. Walking back to his truck, he told me I should propose to the owner to replace all his electric, as it is old and out of date. (unsafe). When he asked me about the rest of the wiring....specifically he asked me what type of wiring there was and if it had grounds. NOPE! I had to answer honestly...I had been in the attic and saw, of course, what was being used. (I was in the attic to group the four circuits to bring them down to my new panel. )

Upon checking the inspection report, I find the following notes:

Left insp notice for permit req'd for all work being done..total remodel,rebuilding west carport,smoke alarms,possible re-wire,etc.

Keep in mind my permit is only for "200 amp upgrade replace panel". Thats it! Now, I don't even know what to do if I was to continue this project. Meaning, if the inspector wants a complete remodel and the re-wire...how can I finish my job by hooking up to his old wiring?

The inspector told me that the house is unlivable. He would not pass the panel until the house was safe to live in. (heater, cooling, water heater, smoke alarms, safe carport built correctily, proper plumbing.). He is holding the inpection pass of my panel until all above (and possibly more ie. rewire) is complete.

Anyway, the owner told me that he will not answer any more questions of mine until he hears from this "general contractor" about what the inspector is going to require. And yes, I left messages with the inspector and his supervisor that I want to be included in this meeting when it is scheduled. Its my permit, I think I have that right! As to being responsible for what the inspector requires...owner won't discuss. After the initial talk with the owner about the inspection, he has not brought the issue up. Only along the lines of "we'll see whats required and then cross that bridge".

The home is in an absoutely terrible area of Phoenix with many vacant run down homes from the 1940s. THe owner lives two hours away and I have only met him at the jobsite the day he pulled out his sneaky "revised" contract.

For those of you that ask why I would agree and sign such a thing? Well, I understood it as

1) My work would need to be up to code and pass inspection and I would need to make sure it does.

2) Any repairs or replacements I do that are not in the contract would also need to be brought up to inspectors code requirements.

I had no problem with this, as I ALWAYS follow code. In fact, I am taking a class at the local college just to be sure I am up on my codes and fully understand all the codes. So, I did not want to argue this. I felt it was the right thing to do...the owner was concerned that something I would do would not be up to code....and I stand by my work. I had no idea he would later interpret this as the opposite...need to perform repairs or replacements to meet all inspectors requirements out of the scope of this contract. If you read it carefully, it can be interpreted in two totally different ways. After all the paragraph this sentence is in regards to work DONE by me in the contract. Then, I thought, also- work I did that I did not list.

I have yet to talk with attorney. I feel it would be best to first meet with the inspector and get the real story of what is going to be required. Then, talk with the HO. If I get the feeling he is going to try to hold me to all of this, then I will see one.

Part of me does want to go by the jobsite and grab my panel and materials. I have never been taken advantage of and this really sucks!

I will continue to update this thread. Thanks again for your interest and help.

Shane

 

[AzVoltage]

this is the original panel / meter. I consulted with utility and we had the new panel installed to the left of the window. (all - in - one) panel - meter combo, as done in Arizona on most homes.

 

[macmikeman]

Az, maybe electrical contractor is not your thing. Maybe you will do better in a different field of endevor. Perhaps this thing is not worth your energy. Thats a pretty sorry looking house. Where did you get the idea in the first place that you would make any real money working on a dump like that.

Perhaps I can show you what you need to be targeting for "service changes" and so forth. Go where the food is....

 

[AzVoltage]

LOL, yes, this is a SORRY looking place. It was intended to be a job that would take one, maybe two days. By no means do I make my living on properties such as this one! But, a few days work is always welcome. In Arizona, to do any project that requires a permit requires a licensed contractor. So, I get the call to come do the changeout. Why not?

The sad thing will be if I am forced to rewire this home and all new outlets, switches, wiring, fixtures....for the price of this cheap panel change!

I have never had problems before with this type of job. The home is left with a much improved panel and grounding. Much safer than what was in before. Even if I don't make a killing on a job, I go away knowing I improved something that was unsafe.

And sometimes, jobs like these, create another link or referral. I did a job once that was a half day of work on a fixer upper and it turned into one of my best customers and have actually had some nice jobs from her.

 

[macmikeman]

One more question for you. Did you get that job off Craigslist? That and the story you tell about the owner sounds like you went job shopping there. I'm not trying to bust your cahones, I am trying to get you to think about what you have done.

 

[Sierrasparky]

LOL, yes, this is a SORRY looking place. It was intended to be a job that would take one, maybe two days. By no means do I make my living on properties such as this one! But, a few days work is always welcome. In Arizona, to do any project that requires a permit requires a licensed contractor. So, I get the call to come do the changeout. Why not?

The sad thing will be if I am forced to rewire this home and all new outlets, switches, wiring, fixtures....for the price of this cheap panel change!

I have never had problems before with this type of job. The home is left with a much improved panel and grounding. Much safer than what was in before. Even if I don't make a killing on a job, I go away knowing I improved something that was unsafe.

And sometimes, jobs like these, create another link or referral. I did a job once that was a half day of work on a fixer upper and it turned into one of my best customers and have actually had some nice jobs from her.

I would not get involved re-wireing that house for free. I would not even think for a moment that you should. The owner is seems to be a fraud from your description. There would be no benifit to do anything at no cost for this guy. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row on this.
If the customer is honest he will pay you for the work not part of your contract.
As far as the inspector you need him to sign off your work and energize contingent of the other work. That is his job. You had nothing to do with the other work.

 

[growler]

The inspector told me that the house is unlivable. He would not pass the panel until the house was safe to live in. (heater, cooling, water heater, smoke alarms, safe carport built correctily, proper plumbing.). He is holding the inpection pass of my panel until all above (and possibly more ie. rewire) is complete.

the owner was concerned that something I would do would not be up to code....and I stand by my work.

First they can't give you a final on this house while all those other permits are open because the electrical may be damaged during construction.

You should be able to get the power turned on with a temp power release for construction. Take all other circuits loose from the breakers and just hook up a couple of GFCI protected receptacles for construction use. This will let the power company turn on power and fullfill your contract.

Sure an owner may be concerned that something that you will do may not be up to code so you give them a guarantee that it will pass inspection and a warranty and that is all. Never sign a contract unless you know exactly what's covered.

Don't worry so much about proving to the customer that you know the code make sure that you are a good business man by covering your butt.

Once you get the power turned on make that guy pay you then negotiate another contract for a house rewire if needed. This time you write the contract and make as few contract obligations as possible. The idea is to limit the scope of the contract.

 

[AzVoltage]

One more question for you. Did you get that job off Craigslist? That and the story you tell about the owner sounds like you went job shopping there. I'm not trying to bust your cahones, I am trying to get you to think about what you have done.

LOL, it sure looks like a CL job to me! Actually, he found me on an internet search. I have a website and some days advertise with google or yahoo.

It was supposed to be a two day job, much like when I give a bid to add a new dryer or micro circuit...(small job). I have much better clients as well, but I don't (and maybe should!) screen the customer by the property. We just finished a complete 400 amp upgrade new panel on an exclusive celebrity/executive rehab center in Scottsdale. Now, that is a nice property. They wanted to upgrade the kitchen to all commercial appliances and they had to upgrade the service for this. Also, just finished a 3 phase panel relocate/replace at an office plaza in a good market in Phoenix. So, not all the jobs are bad. This is why I am having such a time with this one...I'm not used to this kind of customer and project.

I admit, after so much good luck with other customers, I have toned down my contracts and have been protecting myself less. This is a good wake up call!

Two days now and no word from inspector. He has not called the owner, his new GC, nor myself to let us know where to go with this. As for now, everything is on hold and I'm on to other things. I did talk with one of the carpenters on the job by phone today and he mentioned the owner thinks I am worried about being scammed. (well, wouldn't anyone after his comments?). So, maybe things will be okay. Time will tell. I just want to get my panel passed and get the heck out of there!

Thanks for the replies, its great to be able to learn so much from others.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Maybe he reads this forum!
It's not Vegas. what is said here is all over the internet:grin:
Good luck and don't let this guy off.

 

[rodneee]

if 1 tenth of your remodel vs not a remodel story is true, revised contract or not, you have nothing to worry about. he wont even take you to court. it will come out as a case of "theft of sevices" on his part. and i am sure a charge of fraud could be thrown in.

 

[Sierrasparky]

Any update on the situation.
I would not worry about the situation.
If I were you I would not run over and take your product.
You seem to be i a good position.
good Luck1

 

[AzVoltage]

Update:

Heard back from the city today. Basically, since I was the only permit on the job...and all this remodel work is being done, it has tarnished my permit until owner pulls appropriate permits. This is why my inspection will never pass for utility to hook up...until other pemits are pulled and that work is complete. (remodel, adding heating, adding cooling, adding H2O Heater, etc.). So, the job was red tagged until requirements are complied with. The owner IS going to pull the correct permits now, after being forced. Inspector's supervisor that called me today says the only electric that they will force to have brought up to code is only the parts relating to the remodel. Which makes sense, of course. So, the new walls they add will be on new permit, which will have to have the electric specs. Lets see him try to hold me to that! After all, he is just now starting to get his drawings together to submit for his new permits.

My stance: Since city won't clear to be energized until all permitted work is complete, I will come back to finish up and call for utilty AFTER their work is complete. I did go and pull my 3 OT wire from the panel/mast. This is a high crime area and it had "take me" written all over it. The city did say they could put it in writing as to why my permitted work has a stop order. Any changes to the work required (new outlets for new wall, etc), I will tell the owner its not my responsibility, regardless of how he reads our contract. I will charge him for any changes he wants me to perform, of course.

So I think this was a good news day for me. Utility will not require a rewire, unless owner takes out permits to redo entire house. City was covering all aspects since there were unknowns when they wrote the report "possible rewire". It all relates to the extent of the work the owner is having done.

Thanks again for all your insight!

Shane

 

[macmikeman]

Glad to hear it will work out for you. Now in the future, in order to stay out of trouble like this, repeat this after me three times- Arcadia, Arcadia, Arcadia... . Or Payson.

 

[Sierrasparky]

I would make sure you get some more money from the customer. My contract reads about delay's caused by the owner. This certainly wa a dely caused by the owner.

 

[gngren]

You should see if there is a way the city would force a seperate permit for the remodel work. That way you now have an out for what the inspector is requiring inside. You could then bid the work or walk away and let another do it. If you can do this and a seperate permit is pulled for the remodel and he gets his other permits in order they should be able to final your "Service". I am unsure of your area but we get seperate inspections for service and rough/trim wiring around here.