Delta current

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jumper

Senior Member
I understand why the neutral conductor in a 2 pole circuit of a 208Y/120 circuit counts as a CCC, but not why the neutral of a two pole circuit of a 240/120 high leg delta using A and C does not. Why?:-? Yes I do know 310.15(B)(4) says so. But why?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Because the A-N-C 120/240v section of a high-leg Delta is exactly the same as a 120/240v 1ph supply. In fact, the high-leg Delta began as a modification to existing 120/240v 1ph services for new equipment.

A 4-wire Delta can supply either 240v 3ph or 120/240v 1ph. But, the high leg and the neutral will never both supply a single load, so the high leg is irrelevant to the neutral. So, it's like any single-phase supply.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
The combination of the A and C legs along with the grounded conductor of a high leg delta is electrically similar to a single phase center tapped service, and currents balance in the same way.

The rules for counting current carrying conductors are somewhat misleading. In almost _all_ cases the neutral of these circuits will carry _some_ current, and thus in reality is a conductor that carries current. In the circuit arrangements where you are not required to count the neutral as a CCC, however, if you evaluate the special case where the various _ungrounded_ conductors have balanced loading, you find no current on the neutral. (Again, you only get zero current on the neutral in specific cases, not in general.)

To calculate the current on the neutral in any given case, you need to use 'vector addition'.

As you know, the voltages and currents in AC electrical systems are constantly changing values. The current on the neutral is the sum of the various current flowing through all the legs feeding that neutral. If a constantly changing value is annoying, trying to sum up two or more constantly changing values to get a constantly changing result is even more annoying.

But a clever trick comes to our rescue. The first rule is that if you add two sine waves, of different amplitude and different phase, but of the _same_ frequency, then the result is also a sine wave, of the same frequency as the inputs. The amplitude and the phase will be different, but the frequency and the waveform stay the same. The second rule is that you can represent sine waves as vectors, by making the amplitude of the sine wave the length of the vector, and the phase of the sine wave the angle of the vector. With this representation, then the ordinary rules of vector addition apply; take two sine waves, represent them as vectors, add the vectors, and the vector that you get will correctly represent the sine wave that you would get if you tried to add the two sine waves together.

If you look at the voltage vectors representing two legs and the neutral of a three phase wye system (120/208V) you will see a 120 degree phase difference. The sum of two equal currents on the ungrounded legs will be be a third _equal_ current on the neutral leg.

Do the same with a conventional single phase service (120/240V) and you will see a 180 degree angle between the vectors (note, there is considerable discussion on the terminology of this point, save that for another thread!!!!). With equal loading on the ungrounded legs, when you do the vector addition you will get no current on the neutral.

Finally, if you do the same thing with A, C, and neutral of a delta high leg system, you will get no current on the neutral with equal loading on the ungrounded legs.

All of the above make certain assumptions: equal power factor on both legs, and no harmonics. If you don't have equal power factors, then the current phase angles won't match the voltage phase angles, and you will need to use different vector angles to get the correct sum; and if you have harmonics you no longer have simple sine waves, and need to use more complex representations of the current flow, and more complex techniques to do the addition.

-Jon
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
So ... the center tapped neutral of B phase of a high leg 240/120 delta is somehow similar to a center tapped/ split phase 120/240 service?
Actually, with a Delta supply, each secondary is ID'ed by the two conductors flanking it, as in A-B, B-C, and A-C. Plus, the high-leg is traditionally ID'ed as the B phase.

So, the A-C phase is the one with the center tap, which is what I meant by A-N-C above. There is 120v between A and N, and between C and N, and 208v between B and N.

Added: The 208v between B phase and the neutral is unusable, but using it would render the neutral as a CCC.
 
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jumper

Senior Member
Okay, say I use a two pole breaker on A and B phases with a four wire circuit, two hots , neutral, ground. The 240 is for a motor, no problem. The 120v is for a light, on A phase 120v to neutral, no problem, is the neutral a CCC?
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Okay, say I use a two pole breaker on A and B phases with a four wire circuit, two hots , neutral, ground. The 240 is for a motor, no problem. The 120v is for a light, on A phase 120v to neutral, no problem, is the neutral a CCC?
If you're using B phase to mean the high leg, then yes, it is.

If you use A and C (non-hi-leg) phases and the neutral, then no.

(By "using the high leg", I meant using it and the neutral for 208v)
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
In the situation that you describe is a funny one.

I presume that you are still talking about the high leg system, with B 208V to neutral. In this case, the neutral is _not_ carrying the unbalanced currents of the two legs, and thus would be required to be counted as a CCC.

On the other hand, since any current flowing on the B leg must be matched by current flowing on the A leg, thus any current flowing on the neutral must mean less potential current flow on the B leg.

IMHO in the situation you describe, you have 2 effective CCCs for the purpose of thermal derating, but code would require you to count 3.

I'll throw a similar puzzle back at you: take a 208/120V 3 phase wye system, and feed a circuit with a 3 pole breaker. Put a 120V load on leg A, and a 208V load on B-C. Does the neutral count as a CCC as the code is written? Should it count as a CCC?

-Jon
 

jumper

Senior Member
In the situation that you describe is a funny one.

I'll throw a similar puzzle back at you: take a 208/120V 3 phase wye system, and feed a circuit with a 3 pole breaker. Put a 120V load on leg A, and a 208V load on B-C. Does the neutral count as a CCC as the code is written? Should it count as a CCC?

-Jon
Sir, I was not trying to be a smart aleck, I was only trying to learn. I can not answer your question. I know little about delta systems and was curious. I did not respond to your reply because I am way below your league and most others, including Mr Fine on this forum. I appreciate your and Mr Fine's responses, I will shut up now.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Sir, I was not trying to be a smart aleck, I was only trying to learn.
Please don't be offended, and certainly don't let it stop you from asking. I believe his question was aimed at you learning, by asking you to think about figuring out the answer.

I can not answer your question. I know little about delta systems and was curious.
His last question is about a wye supply. It is answerable, and if you read it again and post an answer, I'll be happy to explain it.

I did not respond to your reply because I am way below your league and most others, including Mr Fine on this forum. I appreciate your and Mr Fine's responses, I will shut up now.
You're welcome, and again, please don't stop asking; it benefits us all when one of us understands more. I, for one, enjoy explaining stuff.

I'll throw a similar puzzle back at you: take a 208/120V 3 phase wye system, and feed a circuit with a 3 pole breaker. Put a 120V load on leg A, and a 208V load on B-C. Does the neutral count as a CCC as the code is written? Should it count as a CCC?
What do you think, Jumpy, and why?
 

jumper

Senior Member
"I'll throw a similar puzzle back at you: take a 208/120V 3 phase wye system, and feed a circuit with a 3 pole breaker. Put a 120V load on leg A, and a 208V load on B-C. Does the neutral count as a CCC as the code is written? Should it count as a CCC?"

I am crazy, but per Larry's advice, I will try and answer. Yes the neutral counts, it is a single circuit(A) and that is counted, the two pole (B,C)circuit is a wye derived circuit and 310.1(4)(B) and therefore it counts, this not a true three phase circuit ,it is two separate circuits on all three phases.
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
I didn't think that you were being a smart aleck; I just figured that you posted a 'brain teaser' about one of the corner cases that you might find in a delta system. I did my best to answer, and then to come up with a corresponding strange case in a wye system.

I like your analysis of my teaser; clearly all 4 conductors will carry full current. At the same time I think that _as the code is written_ you would be able to get away with not counting the neutral.

-Jon
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Yes the neutral counts, it is a single circuit(A) and that is counted, the two pole (B,C)circuit is a wye derived circuit and 310.1(4)(B) and therefore it counts, this not a true three phase circuit ,it is two separate circuits on all three phases.
Correct. The 208v circuit is not really relevant; that the neutral carries other than imbalance current is.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Larry, you are insinuating that I may have been correct and that is just down right disturbing.:)
Capt. Kirk: "I'm not sure, Bones, but I think we've just been insulted."

Dr. McCoy: "I'm sure!" ~ from Star Trek - Mirror, Mirror
 
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