Working with Old motors

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Larryc39

Member
I don't think these exact questions have been covered. I saw some good motor info in the searches I did but partly I lost out because "Wye" is not a valid search word :confused:

I have an old 3? 9-terminal motor and would like to power it off a 240V converter (running off 1? 220). Now what concerns me is that my power converter is explicitly called out as a "Delta or three wire output" and Not a "Wye or 4 wire output." From what I've decoded off a fortunately well preserved ID tag is that this motor is Star (old word for Wye presumably) wired and the plug has four wires (haven't traced them into the hookup box yet).

The wiring references for LV/HV is referring to if 220 or 440 is used on the motor and not anything to do with the AC frequency, correct. I'll be wiring it to the LV mode if it is not already there for my 220 feed.

I'm assuming it's a Very Bad thing to wire this motor up directly to my delta supply, either for my rather new converter, or my vintage motor if not bad for both. Are there Delta-Wye converters available for this type of application? Max load would be 3.7HP @ 10A continuous or 13.4A/3kW peak, (sizing for the converter not the motor). What would be a good source/cost?

I'd rather not go back to a 1? motor at this point, because of applications it needs to operate in both forward and reverse modes hence the decision to go with a 3? converter before noticing this last wiring mismatch, and it probably wouldn't have been much cheaper the other route anyway.


On an unrelated historical note, does anyone recognize this power plug? Appears to be a rather unsafe looking finger-in-barrel audio type, I haven't seen in the NEMA plug charts but then again wiring this system with the modern 11-15 (converter) or 15-15 (motor) type plug isn't exactly appropriate either. Does NEMA offer a 10A 250V 3? plug? Are the 15-15 plugs typically hard to find, they dont' seem to be in the Cooper and Leviton catalogs.


IMG_4196.jpg




I can't get a clear photo because of the mounting location, but here is a transcription of the motor plate. Howell appears to have consumed by Kinetek recently.

Nameplate:

Howell Electric Motors Co.
Howell, Michigan, U.S.A.
Induction Motor
[ ] ?C. Rise [ ] Hrs.@60 Cycles
Number [17070F 6]
H.P. [1/3] Frame [A-142]
Phase [3] Type [T]
Cycles [60] Cycles [50]
RPM [1120] RPM [1440]
Volts [220] Volts [220]
Amps. [1.2] Amps [1.3]
Volts [440] Volts [440]
Amps. [.60?] Amps. [.45?]
27772

Low Voltage Star
[Figure] L1 to 1 - Jumper to 7; L2 to 2 - Jumper to 8; L3 to 3 - Jumper to 9; Bridge Points 4,5,6

High Voltage Star
[Figure] L1 to 1; L2 to 2; L3 to 3; Bridge These Pairs 7&4,8&5,9&6

IMG_4190.jpg
 
R

RUWired

Senior Member
Location
Pa.
Larry, it does't matter that the motor is configured as a wye and the converter is a delta. What matters is the that the voltages are in range and the hp matches the motor. The 240 converter creates a high leg, so if you have a 120 cooling pump, keep it off that leg or plug into a seperate source.

The male plug you have is a hubbell type 600 volt rated twist lock. You could change it out to a 3-phase 250 volt locking plug if you want.

Rick
 
W

wireguru

Senior Member
are you using one of those little $125 single phase in - 3 phase out VFDs?

the connector is made by hubbell and you can still get them -but theyre expensive. I too recommend replacing it with a normal twistlock.
 
L

Larryc39

Member
Sounds like Good news! Didn't want to mesh delta and wye without some other opinions first.

I don't like the looks of that plug though so I'm going to replace it with a more conventional L15-20 since the 15-15's are pretty hard to find.

The converter is a big (100lb) rotary TEMCo X3 model, not one of the all electronic toys.

The setup is actually quite clean, the equipment was cleaned and repainted once in its life and then...never again. A sludge mixture was covering just about everything like a factory cosmoline job. I was scraping it off with a painters knife tool when I hit a hidden masking tape pocket and this brilliantly clean ID tag popped through! You can still see some of it in the lower left near the grease fitting. It's a winter project for sure.

Thanks guys.
 
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wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
Larryc39:

I scrolled down half way past your picture and thought that looks like the rack drive for a carriage on a lathe! I notice the adjustable carriage stop and the three jaw chuck then. What kind is it?
 
L

Larryc39

Member
wptski said:
Larryc39:

I scrolled down half way past your picture and thought that looks like the rack drive for a carriage on a lathe! I notice the adjustable carriage stop and the three jaw chuck then. What kind is it?
Click to expand...

Southbend Model 9A, not sure of the age, has the automatic gearbox for threading. Purchased from Lindmere Tube which closed down last year in Cleveland. I figure it'll be a good first lathe. Waiting on my replacement toolpost and tools to come, so I'm not too much in a hurry to get things wired up.
 
W

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
Larryc39 said:
Southbend Model 9A, not sure of the age, has the automatic gearbox for threading. Purchased from Lindmere Tube which closed down last year in Cleveland. I figure it'll be a good first lathe. Waiting on my replacement toolpost and tools to come, so I'm not too much in a hurry to get things wired up.
Click to expand...
I have a Rockwell-Delta 10" metal lathe, 3' hardened ways which I purchased new in 1971, I think. I don't use a regular tool post. I have collets, so I used end mills in the collets to make a solid block type holder and shim up/down for proper tool height. Much stronger the conventional rocker type tool holders.
 
N

norcal

Senior Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcal
It is a Hubbellock.



zbang said:
Haven't seen one of those since the late '70s. Does anybody (else) still use them?
Click to expand...

Former employer used them for all portable 480V equipment, the old style metal armored ones would light up pretty good when they got dropped on a concrete surface.:D
 
Besoeker

Besoeker

Senior Member
Location
UK
Larryc39 said:
I have an old 3? 9-terminal motor and would like to power it off a 240V converter (running off 1? 220). Now what concerns me is that my power converter is explicitly called out as a "Delta or three wire output" and Not a "Wye or 4 wire output." From what I've decoded off a fortunately well preserved ID tag is that this motor is Star (old word for Wye presumably) wired and the plug has four wires (haven't traced them into the hookup box yet).
Click to expand...
The term *star" is the word in current use in UK and elsewhere in the world for what you call "wye".
If you intend to use a fixed frequency converter to run the motor youneed to make sure it can provide the starting current.
 
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lakee911

Senior Member
Location
Columbus, OH
Larryc39 said:
Southbend Model 9A, not sure of the age, has the automatic gearbox for threading. Purchased from Lindmere Tube which closed down last year in Cleveland. I figure it'll be a good first lathe. Waiting on my replacement toolpost and tools to come, so I'm not too much in a hurry to get things wired up.
Click to expand...

That's awesome. I can't wait to get a hold of one myself. I never did give it much thought that if I wanted reverse (assuming that it has no mechanical reverse), three phase would be needed.

I believe a lot of Southbend lathes were manufactured heavily between the 30s and 50s.

Jason
 
W

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
lakee911 said:
That's awesome. I can't wait to get a hold of one myself. I never did give it much thought that if I wanted reverse (assuming that it has no mechanical reverse), three phase would be needed.

I believe a lot of Southbend lathes were manufactured heavily between the 30s and 50s.

Jason
Click to expand...
Nope! My lathe has single phase reverse, just reverse the start windings through a switch. I have a drill press that's wired the same way too.
 
W

wptski

Senior Member
Location
Warren, MI
lakee911 said:
Fo shizzle? Got a pic or diagram so I can see how it works?

Thanks,
Jason
Click to expand...
Might have for the lathe which actually uses a low voltage control as I remember but the drill press doesn't. Any single phase motor's direction can be reversed just by reversing the polarity of the start winding. The catch is not all single phase motors have the start winding connections out where one can change them. I have another single phase motor that has the wiring diagram right on its nameplate.

Here's a thread on the subject: http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=63207
 
Last edited:
weressl

weressl

Esteemed Member
Location
Texas by the Gulf, geat crab, great shrimp
Larryc39 said:
I don't think these exact questions have been covered. I saw some good motor info in the searches I did but partly I lost out because "Wye" is not a valid search word :confused:

I have an old 3? 9-terminal motor and would like to power it off a 240V converter (running off 1? 220). Now what concerns me is that my power converter is explicitly called out as a "Delta or three wire output" and Not a "Wye or 4 wire output." From what I've decoded off a fortunately well preserved ID tag is that this motor is Star (old word for Wye presumably) wired and the plug has four wires (haven't traced them into the hookup box yet).

The wiring references for LV/HV is referring to if 220 or 440 is used on the motor and not anything to do with the AC frequency, correct. I'll be wiring it to the LV mode if it is not already there for my 220 feed.

I'm assuming it's a Very Bad thing to wire this motor up directly to my delta supply, either for my rather new converter, or my vintage motor if not bad for both. Are there Delta-Wye converters available for this type of application? Max load would be 3.7HP @ 10A continuous or 13.4A/3kW peak, (sizing for the converter not the motor). What would be a good source/cost?

I'd rather not go back to a 1? motor at this point, because of applications it needs to operate in both forward and reverse modes hence the decision to go with a 3? converter before noticing this last wiring mismatch, and it probably wouldn't have been much cheaper the other route anyway.


On an unrelated historical note, does anyone recognize this power plug? Appears to be a rather unsafe looking finger-in-barrel audio type, I haven't seen in the NEMA plug charts but then again wiring this system with the modern 11-15 (converter) or 15-15 (motor) type plug isn't exactly appropriate either. Does NEMA offer a 10A 250V 3? plug? Are the 15-15 plugs typically hard to find, they dont' seem to be in the Cooper and Leviton catalogs.






I can't get a clear photo because of the mounting location, but here is a transcription of the motor plate. Howell appears to have consumed by Kinetek recently.

Nameplate:

Howell Electric Motors Co.
Howell, Michigan, U.S.A.
Induction Motor
[ ] ?C. Rise [ ] Hrs.@60 Cycles
Number [17070F 6]
H.P. [1/3] Frame [A-142]
Phase [3] Type [T]
Cycles [60] Cycles [50]
RPM [1120] RPM [1440]
Volts [220] Volts [220]
Amps. [1.2] Amps [1.3]
Volts [440] Volts [440]
Amps. [.60?] Amps. [.45?]
27772

Low Voltage Star
[Figure] L1 to 1 - Jumper to 7; L2 to 2 - Jumper to 8; L3 to 3 - Jumper to 9; Bridge Points 4,5,6

High Voltage Star
[Figure] L1 to 1; L2 to 2; L3 to 3; Bridge These Pairs 7&4,8&5,9&6
Click to expand...

Just isolate the Y junction point and connect the three legs of the motor to the ASD's terminals. This is not a problem, now Wye/Delta isses here.

Your concern will be more with the insulation whether it is sufficient to take the spikes that the ASD will generate, especially old motors. You best chance of having tha motor last the longest is to locate the ASD as close to the motor as possible. Loose the plug and connect the drive to the motor directly with a cable that has three phase wires and preferable three uninsulated bare grounding wires spaced equally between the phase wires.
 
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L

Larryc39

Member
Finally got back into wiring up the system. No ASD's here, just a big old Cutler-Hammer drum controller to set the motor on and in a direction. ASD is provided by a set of analog (very solid state) gears. Once I got into the DC found it it was already wired without a neutral, apart from L1-L3 coming off the motor, the fourth wires both from the motor and that Hubbelock were tied together and to chassis err earth ground of the system, no neutral involved. That does make it a bit akward at the converter side though. It has L1-L3 connections, an earth ground, and 220 hot lines for I/O. Since my 220 is coming off a GIANT 110 style three prong plug (can't remember the real NEMA name right now) it only has the two hots and a neutral, will have to run a seperate permanet grounding wire from the converter to the plug box. Not a big deal, unless I tow this thing with the car the converter isn't going to move anytime soon.
 
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