Service Entrance conductor or Feeder?

[barry_359]

First let me say that I view this forum all the time but rarely post. I have about 30 years in the trade and 12 years as an inspector in one of the busiest towns in NJ.
Here's the question, Can the feeder tap rules of the 2008 NEC 240.21(B) be applied to the solar connection that is connected to the supply side of the service disconnecting means as in 690.64(A)?
My answer would be no, as this is not a feeder and the tap rules do not apply. The first question I would have would be "what size overcurrent is protecting the feeder?" You would have to know this to apply the tap rules.
I have inspected hundreds of Solar installations and the solar equipment, or a fused disconnect for the solar equipment, is installed adjacent to the service disconnect. It is my interpretation that the conductors before the service disconnect are service entrance conductors.
Although I hope everyone on this forum agrees with me, if someone disagrees and thinks that the tap rules due apply please show me a code section that allows this. Also remember I am talking about connections on the supply side of the service disconnect, not back fed breakers.

 

[SeanD]

I have used this installation method on a number of solar systems. They are definitely service conductors and all the applicable code sections apply.

 

[celtic]

Although I hope everyone on this forum agrees with me, if someone disagrees....

What is the State's position on this question?

 

[barry_359]

I have not recieved a reply yet.
Remember that the State can only offer an opinion which is not enforceable. They want to promote uniform enforcement. They can not over rule the Subcode Official. Only the Appeals Board can do that. However if Suzzanne can give me a code section to allow this I would use it.
This issue came up because the contractor wants to have the solar equipment 10' away from the service. We would not allow 10' of service conductor to the service panel so why would we allow it to the solar equipment? It is the same unfused conductors. The commentary in the Handbook explains that the supply side connection is similar to installing a second service entrance and the requirements of Article 230 apply. And yes I know that the commentary is not enforcable code, but it is a useful tool.
Did I metion that the contractor is an inspector in NJ?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

I have not recieved a reply yet.
Remember that the State can only offer an opinion which is not enforceable. They want to promote uniform enforcement. They can not over rule the Subcode Official. Only the Appeals Board can do that. However if Suzzanne can give me a code section to allow this I would use it.
This issue came up because the contractor wants to have the solar equipment 10' away from the service. We would not allow 10' of service conductor to the service panel so why would we allow it to the solar equipment? It is the same unfused conductors. The commentary in the Handbook explains that the supply side connection is similar to installing a second service entrance and the requirements of Article 230 apply. And yes I know that the commentary is not enforcable code, but it is a useful tool.
Did I metion that the contractor is an inspector in NJ?

The unfused service conductors can run unlimited length OUTSIDE, you're right that you would not pass 10' feet to the service panel, but 230.6 and 230.82 (6) would allow him to do this if done right.

 

[celtic]

I have not recieved a reply yet.
Remember that the State can only offer an opinion which is not enforceable. They want to promote uniform enforcement. They can not over rule the Subcode Official. Only the Appeals Board can do that. However if Suzzanne can give me a code section to allow this I would use it.

Without a doubt, you are following the correct path.

This issue came up because the contractor wants to have the solar equipment 10' away from the service. We would not allow 10' of service conductor to the service panel so why would we allow it to the solar equipment? It is the same unfused conductors. The commentary in the Handbook explains that the supply side connection is similar to installing a second service entrance and the requirements of Article 230 apply. And yes I know that the commentary is not enforcable code, but it is a useful tool.

IF the conductors are being run inside the building, I agree. [as detailed by previous post]

Did I metion that the contractor is an inspector in NJ?

I thought all three were you. :grin:

 

[Smart $]

...

Although I hope everyone on this forum agrees with me, if someone disagrees and thinks that the tap rules due apply please show me a code section that allows this. ...

Well there is evidence that anyone that does disagree with you is wrong.

ARTICLE 240
Overcurrent Protection
I. General
...
240.2 Definitions.
...
Tap Conductors. As used in this article, a tap conductor is
defined as a conductor, other than a service conductor, that
has overcurrent protection ahead of its point of supply that
exceeds the value permitted for similar conductors that are
protected as described elsewhere in 240.4.

Note a service conductor (lateral or service entrance, but not a service drop) is permitted to be tapped. Such taps are not covered under Article 240, as per above.

 

[Smart $]

... It is my interpretation that the conductors before the service disconnect are service entrance conductors.
...

As such, the tap is also a service entrance conductor and subject to 230.40, but therein relaxed by...

Exception No. 5: One set of service-entrance conductors
connected to the supply side of the normal service disconnecting
means shall be permitted to supply each or several
systems covered by 230.82(5) or 230.82(6).

Note this "One set" is called service-entrance conductors. Each set must therefore meet the requirements of 230.40 with respect to the system it supplies.

 

[Keldra]

feeder inthe same ditch with phone conduit

feeder inthe same ditch with phone conduit

I am wanting too run a pvc conduit for a (phone line) in the same ditch that iam planning to run ridgid conduit to a panel in a detached garage. question is for a phone conduit does the same depth requirements apply thanks

 

[Smart $]

I am wanting too run a pvc conduit for a (phone line) in the same ditch that iam planning to run ridgid conduit to a panel in a detached garage. question is for a phone conduit does the same depth requirements apply thanks

No, the depth requirements for electric power and lighting do not apply communication cables and conduits.