Pool Equipment Feeder

[TOOL_5150]

Situation:
Customer has 200A main, with only spaces for 2 double pole breakers.
He wants to add a spa later, a shed sooner than later, and move his existing pool equipment.

Currently: Pool equip runs straight to the main, along with the A/C and the feed for the subpanel in the garage. The A/C and pool equip are zinsco tandems.

I propose to remove the pool equipment feed and A/C feed and bring it to a new sub on the side of the house - see my cruddy drawing.

My question: Does that feed to the new subpanel HAVE to have an insulated ground? That sub will feed a pool panel in the spot you see it on the pic. I will also hook the A/C to this new sub.

I need code references for the pool stuff - I dont normally deal with pools, and do not want to screw up.

I also posted this on another forum, so this may seem familiar

~Matt

 

[wireguru]

id replace the zinsco main......

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Matt
Take a look at 680.25(A) & (B).

In regards to the insulated ground conductor, see the last sentence in (B).

 

[TOOL_5150]

id replace the zinsco main......

The HO wants me to make this work without replacing the main. I am trying to figure out how.

~Matt

 

[TOOL_5150]

Matt
Take a look at 680.25(A) & (B).

In regards to the insulated ground conductor, see the last sentence in (B).

I see everything wants an insulated grounding conductor, however isnt that between the power source and the pool panel? I am concerned with the wiring method between 2 panels, one of which will be supplying a pool panel.

I just realized that im looking at a 1999 code book. CA is in 2005, and that book is at work. Can ya spot me the paragraph?

~Matt

 

[M. D.]

NEC 2005
680.25 Feeders.
These provisions shall apply to any feeder on the supply side of panelboards supplying branch
circuits for pool equipment covered in Part II of this article and on the load side of the service
equipment or the source of a separately derived system.

(A) Wiring Methods. Feeders shall be installed in rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal
conduit, liquidtlght, flexible nonmetallic conduit, or rigid nonmetallic conduit. Electrical
metallic tubing shall be permitted where installed on or within a building, and electrical
nonmetallic tubing shall be permitted where installed within a building.
Exception: An existing feeder between an existing remote panelboard and service equipment
shall be permitted to run in flexible metal conduit or an approved cable assembly that
includes an equipment grounding conductor within its outer sheath. The equipment grounding
conductor shall comply with 25Q.24(A)(5).

(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be installed with the feeder
conductors between the grounding terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the
grounding terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a separately derived
system. For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to
separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in
accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

(1) Size. This conductor shall be sized in accordance with 250.122 but not smaller than 12
AWG. On separately derived systems, this conductor shall be sized in accordance with Table
250.66 but not smaller than 8 AWG,

(2) Separate Buildings. A feeder to a separate building or structure shall be permitted to
supply swimming pool equipment branch circuits, or feeders supplying swimming pool
equipment branch circuits, if the grounding arrangements in the separate building meet the
requirements in 250.32(B)(1). Where installed in other than existing feeders covered in
680.25(A), Exception, a separate equipment grounding conductor shall be an insulated
conductor.

 

[eprice]

680.25 provides the scope. It is pretty clear to me that this applies to all feeders between the main and the pool equipment panel including any sub-panels .

 

[220/221]

For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to
separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in
accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

I have, on occaision, installed a romex fed sub panel and come back later to run the pool equipment from it legally since it was existing.

It doesn't say how long it had to exist.

 

[TOOL_5150]

680.25 provides the scope. It is pretty clear to me that this applies to all feeders between the main and the pool equipment panel including any sub-panels .

For other than (1) existing feeders covered in 680.25(A), Exception, or (2) feeders to
separate buildings that do not utilize an insulated equipment grounding conductor in
accordance with 680.25(B)(2), this equipment grounding conductor shall be insulated.

I have, on occaision, installed a romex fed sub panel and come back later to run the pool equipment from it legally since it was existing.

It doesn't say how long it had to exist.

Ok so you are saying that if I install a NEW sub fed from the service with its feed being pipe and wire, the new sub can feed the pool panel with pipe and wire as well?

Like this:
Service ===== New Sub ===== Pool panel

I know I may sound redundant, but this part of 680.25 makes me think a pool panel has to be connected directly to the service - no sub panels between:

680.25 (B)

(B) Grounding. An equipment grounding conductor shall be
installed with the feeder conductors between the grounding
terminal of the pool equipment panelboard and the grounding
terminal of the applicable service equipment or source of a
separately derived system.

Since a sub is not service equipment, am I allowed to have a sub between the pool panel and the service as long as BOTH feeds have an insulated ground?

Am I just overthinking this?:grin:

~Matt

 

[M. D.]

I sent this as a private message ,.. I'm pretty sure it has been discussed here as well ,. but I found this thread and thought you might be interested if you read the thread you will see his question and Mr. Ode's answer

Hey Matt you may want to take a peek at this thread

http://www.iccsafe.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000953

Bryan is a smart guy, I'm sure you have seen his posts. this is from the link above ,.. I hope it helps .

Mark Ode is also to be considered an expert.

Your getting closer, but that installation would still not be okay. The branch circuits supplying pool equipment cannot be served by a feeder from a panleboard served from a feeder. The feeder to a panelboard must originate at the service.

The original intent of the exception to (A) was to allow pool branch circuits to be installed from existing panelboards supplied by existing feeders. The excpetion does not give the allowance to run a feeder from an existing or new panelboard that is not service equipment.

Regardless if the installation is new or existing the feeder to a pool panelboard must be from the service. The determination of existing or new only changes what wiring method is used for that feeder.

I have confirmed my position with Mark Ode from UL.

--------------------
Bryan P. Holland, ICC Electrical Code Official
CBO, Plans Examiner, Inspector, Instructor
Secretary - IAEI Florida Gulf Coast Division
Secretary - BOAF Gulf Coast Chapter
Quote:

 

[suemarkp]

So if you have a disconnect only service (no panelboard, just a disconnect) so your "main panel" is MLO and fed from a feeder and not a service, then you can't have a pool?

 

[raider1]

Here is the definition of feeder from Article 100 of the NEC.

Feeder. All circuit conductors between the service equipment, the source of a separately derived system, or other power supply source and the final branch-circuit overcurrent device.

So as I read it a feeder originates at the service equipment and includes all circuit conductors between that point and the final branch circuit overcurrent device. This means that regardless of how many panelboards are between the service and the final branch circuit overcurrent device you only have one feeder.

Chris

 

[LarryFine]

I have, on occaision, installed a romex fed sub panel and come back later to run the pool equipment from it legally since it was existing.

It doesn't say how long it had to exist.

Lunchtime should take care of it.

 

[chevyx92]

Lunchtime should take care of it.

:grin: .