Settle argument?

[Sierrasparky]

a colleague and I have a disagreement.
We would like to know that if you have an existing bathroom under remodel and are changing out the heat lamps in the ceiling and installing a heat ,vent, light.. The original circuit is 15 amp and powers the vanity light, GFCI outlet, heat lamps , and leaves the bath to power lighting in the bedroom ,and hallway.

The question is do you need to run a new circuit for the heat,vent ,light because it uses about 80% of the rating of the circuit?
For me it is the preferred method and there is no rehab code here.
Thanks

 

[rcarroll]

The few heat/vent/lights I've installed required a separate 20 amp ckt. So, if the listing of the new h/v/l says, then a new ckt is required.

 

[charlie b]

When you touch a circuit, I believe you must not leave it in a condition that violates code. In your case, you are dealing with two code violations. If you do not separate the heat/light/vent from the rest of the circuit, you will violate 210.23(A)(2). Regardless of your specific question, the circuit already violates 210.11(C)(3), in that a bathroom receptacle is on the same circuit as a light that is not in the same bathroom.

 

[rcarroll]

Regardless of your specific question, the circuit already violates 210.11(C)(3), in that a bathroom receptacle is on the same circuit as a light that is not in the same bathroom.

If the outlet was allowed to be on any circuit in past codes, how could this be a violation?

 

[Sierrasparky]

I belive this place to be built on a very early 1980's code or late 70's.
So it was code compliant at the time.

 

[charlie b]

If the outlet was allowed to be on any circuit in past codes, how could this be a violation?

I don't know when that requirement came into the code, but that does not matter. It is a violation of today's code. The "grandfather clause" may permit the condition to remain, if in fact it met the code that was in effect at the time of its initial installation. But if you modify the circuit for other reasons, I think the grandfather clause is no longer in effect. So it must be brought up to current code.

 

[rcarroll]

. But if you modify the circuit for other reasons, I think the grandfather clause is no longer in effect. So it must be brought up to current code.

Even if all their doing is changing out the the h/v/l? I'm not sure I agree.

 

[480sparky]

The 20a bath circuit was first required in '96.

I'm with charlie... if you modify or add to it, it must be brought up to todays Code.

 

[sameguy]

so when he changes out the bed room light to a new one he needs to add archfaults now ? He never touched the gfi (we had this about 3wks ago).
You do need a new home run for the heat/light/vent per manuf. load; as stated it calls for one.

 

[480sparky]

so when he changes out the bed room light to a new one he needs to add archfaults now ?

No, because fixtures are not outlets. They are utilization equipment.

 

[rcarroll]

No, because fixtures are not outlets. They are utilization equipment.

The h/v/l is an outlet? The OP said they're changing out the old for new. At best, if installing a new ckt for it, they are reducing the load of the existing ckt.

 

[480sparky]

The h/v/l is an outlet? The OP said they're changing out the old for new. At best, if installing a new ckt for it, they are reducing the load of the existing ckt.

Even so, would it be required to be AFCI-protected per 210.12?

 

[sameguy]

see outlet in art.100, see 210.12b 2005code
needs archfault

 

[rcarroll]

Even so, would it be required to be AFCI-protected per 210.12?

I don't have my code book w/ me, but no. It's in the bathroom. I don't think AFI protection is required for bathroom outlets.

 

[sameguy]

h/v/l/ isn't an outlet, I was trying to show how the gfi stays on the 15a, add new 20a hr. for the h/v/l,. Others think you need to run a 20a hr for both, (1) for the gfi becuse you looked at it. (1) for h/v/l because the manf. calls for it and it draws 80% of load.
I threw in to change light fix. in bedroom would cause you to put in archfaults using the thought proccess being used for the new hr. to the gfi in bath that wasn't touched. clearer?

 

[480sparky]

I don't have my code book w/ me, but no. It's in the bathroom. I don't think AFI protection is required for bathroom outlets.

The way I read 210.12, it doesn't.

h/v/l/ isn't an outlet, I was trying to show how the gfi stays on the 15a, add new 20a hr. for the h/v/l,. Others think you need to run a 20a hr for both, (1) for the gfi becuse you looked at it. (1) for h/v/l because the manf. calls for it and it draws 80% of load.
I threw in to change light fix. in bedroom would cause you to put in archfaults using the thought proccess being used for the new hr. to the gfi in bath that wasn't touched. clearer?

If you're going to the trouble of installing a new 20a for the h/v/l, why not run another 20a for the recep?

 

[Sierrasparky]

The h/v/l is an outlet? The OP said they're changing out the old for new. At best, if installing a new ckt for it, they are reducing the load of the existing ckt.

The HVL is not an outlet is hardwired fixed in place unit. The drywall was removed to replace it. The drywall was removed in the entire bath area.
I have always thought if you leave it then let it ride. You remove it then you need to bring it to code. Ar you folks telling me that if you replace outlets in the kitchen and GFCI was not required at the time of construction then you would not install a GFCI. !

 

[480sparky]

....... Ar you folks telling me that if you replace outlets in the kitchen and GFCI was not required at the time of construction then you would not install a GFCI. !

Barring local amendments, there's nothing in the NEC that would compel you to install GFCIs in a kitchen if it was wired at a time prior to GFCIs being required. This is true for any Code rule.

Otherwise, houses would require updating every three years.

Given that, there's no requirement to say you can't install GFCIs in an older kitchen.

 

[rcarroll]

The HVL is not an outlet is hardwired fixed in place unit. The drywall was removed to replace it. The drywall was removed in the entire bath area.
I have always thought if you leave it then let it ride. You remove it then you need to bring it to code. Ar you folks telling me that if you replace outlets in the kitchen and GFCI was not required at the time of construction then you would not install a GFCI. !

I know the h/v/l is not an outlet.
Since you're not touching the recep, it stays the same.
If you change out a non-GFI recep in the kitchen, or any other area that now requires GFI, then yes, I would re-install a GFI protected recep. 406. someting I think.

 

[480sparky]

I know the h/v/l is not an outlet.
Since you're not touching the recep, it stays the same.
If you change out a non-GFI recep in the kitchen, or any other area that now requires GFI, then yes, I would re-install a GFI protected recep. 406. someting I think.

210.8 is the GFCI requirement. 406 only requires the recep be grounded.