Am I bonding pipe or is it an electrode

[dwmacpherson]

Long story short... Inspection report for a home says water piping needs to be bonded to electrical system in laundry room. No argument that it needs to be bonded but the water piping system is already bonded upstairs at the water heater yet not within 5' of entrance into the house (which would be in the laundry room water shut off) as required when 10' of pipe is exposed to the earth and used as a grounding electrode. My question... though it is best to do so, are we required to use the water piping of a home as an electrode or is simply bonding it at any point okay. I know code is "minimum" but when your customer only wants to pay what is necessary, I have to provide the right answer.

 

[e57]

The code basically says - if an electrode exists - it must be part of the electrode system. i.e. If it has 10'+ of metalic pipe underground then it is an electrode, and must be within 5' of entrance to the building. (See 250.52(A)1) The bond is then an electrode. If it does not have 10' of metalic pipe underground - it is just a bond (see 250.104(A)1) - even though it looks a lot like what the same install for an electrode conductor would... It doesn't say to apply 250.52... IMO - I would just do it at 5' from the entrance - just incase the plumber changes his mind, has it changed for him, or changes the pipe later...


But the bond at the water heater upstairs, does it go back to the main panel, or is it just across the cold and hot? Is it sized for 250.66?

 

[SG-1]

As e57 has said 250.50 requires that all electrodes present be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.

250.52(A)(1) defines a metal water pipe in contact with the earth for 10ft or more as an electrode. It requires the bonding within 5ft of the point of entrance.

In addition the water pipe cannot be used alone, a supplemental electrode is required, 250.53(D)(2).

You may want to caution the home owner that since his piping is metal it should only be repaired with metal. For his safety he should never allow PVC to be used for repair, or somebody could die in the tub, especially with an electric water heater.

 

[LarryFine]

Mac, welcome to the forum!

How old is the house? If the installation was compliant when it was, well, installed, then it's compliant now, unless an un-permitted and -inspected service change was performed and the grounding wasn't redone.

Also, home inspectors carry no legal clout; they express opinions. Their opinions can be used to renegotiate contracts, but they can also be debunked when they're incorrect, which is a fairly common occurance.

 

[romeo]

Am I bonding pipe or is it an electrode

Mac, welcome to the forum!

How old is the house? If the installation was compliant when it was, well, installed, then it's compliant now, unless an un-permitted and -inspected service change was performed and the grounding wasn't redone.

Also, home inspectors carry no legal clout; they express opinions. Their opinions can be used to renegotiate contracts, but they can also be debunked when they're incorrect, which is a fairly common occurrence.

You are correct about about the common occurrence, of home inspectors bing incorrect.

A resident was having a problem with the builder of a new home, that I inspected and passed. She called in a home inspector, who told her the electrical should not have passed because the service was grounded to the interior metal piping but the underground piping was plastic.

Well it was not a grounding electrode but a bonding conductor for the interior copper water piping. The grounding electrode system was the well casing.

She reported me to the town Selectmen and I was called before them to explain.All was fine after I explained. I asked that the home inspector be present at the meeting but that never happened.

I lost a lot of respect for home inspectors ,after that.

 

[tom baker]

What is the NEC requirement for bonding isolated sections of metal water piping systems?
Why is there a danger with an electric water heater?

 

[LarryFine]

I lost a lot of respect for home inspectors ,after that.

Two separate incidents, one of them incurring a fire, both after receiving rave reviews about the electric service from HI's, were the basis for most of my loss.

 

[dwmacpherson]

The code basically says - if an electrode exists - it must be part of the electrode system. i.e. If it has 10'+ of metalic pipe underground then it is an electrode, and must be within 5' of entrance to the building. (See 250.52(A)1) The bond is then an electrode. If it does not have 10' of metalic pipe underground - it is just a bond (see 250.104(A)1) - even though it looks a lot like what the same install for an electrode conductor would... It doesn't say to apply 250.52... IMO - I would just do it at 5' from the entrance - just incase the plumber changes his mind, has it changed for him, or changes the pipe later...


But the bond at the water heater upstairs, does it go back to the main panel, or is it just across the cold and hot? Is it sized for 250.66?

This answers my question and I should have looked into 250 a little deeper. When you say if it exists an electrode than it must be treated as one this was the answer I was looking for. To answer your question, the bond does go back to the panel. I know the original installer by chance, or at least works for the original installer (romex jockeys) and he said they did them all this way. Water heater piping upstairs was bonded to the panel and the homes were all copper at this time. It is sized properly - #4.

 

[dwmacpherson]

Mac, welcome to the forum!

How old is the house? If the installation was compliant when it was, well, installed, then it's compliant now, unless an un-permitted and -inspected service change was performed and the grounding wasn't redone.

Also, home inspectors carry no legal clout; they express opinions. Their opinions can be used to renegotiate contracts, but they can also be debunked when they're incorrect, which is a fairly common occurance.

The home is only about 10 - 15 years old, one of the last all copper I guess. It passed then I know but I am thinking it may not have been compliant then either.

 

[iwire]

I lost a lot of respect for home inspectors ,after that.

Two separate incidents, one of them incurring a fire, both after receiving rave reviews about the electric service from HI's, were the basis for most of my loss.

So when you run into a bad home inspector you figure they all are bad.

Do you apply the same standard to electricians?

How about electrical inspectors?

We see stories on this forum all the time about bad ECs or EIs so I guess all ECs and EIs do not deserve any respect.


I know I harp on this a lot but I just don't get this open hosility that many electricians seem to have over home inspectors.

 

[LarryFine]

When you say if it exists an electrode than it must be treated as one this was the answer I was looking for.

You'd need to know whether there is a continuous 10' in contact with earth.

 

[romeo]

Am I bonding pipe or is this an electrode

Am I bonding pipe or is this an electrode

I agree with iwire, I should have mentioned only the HI I dealt with.

I don't know if HI are required to give code references or signed documentation, as EI are when targeting a violation,I do know that this one would not.

IMO they would do well to either to become qualified by obtaining a license or hiring people that are if they want to give opinions on electrical installations.

 

[LarryFine]

So when you run into a bad home inspector you figure they all are bad.

No, I still give them the benefit of the doubt, but I honestly believe the majority of the ones with whom I've had indirect contact have been inaccurate as far as understanding the NEC, especially when applying present requirements to existing, compliant-when-new installations.

Do you apply the same standard to electricians?

How about electrical inspectors?

No, but for both of these professions, I've grown to accept that licensing and job titles, respectively, do not guarantee that one is adequately proficient in their position. We've heard enough nightmares about both in these forums to know that.

We see stories on this forum all the time about bad ECs or EIs so I guess all ECs and EIs do not deserve any respect.

I know I harp on this a lot but I just don't get this open hosility that many electricians seem to have over home inspectors.

Of course, we're generalizing, and the few bad apples always get the greatest attention. Nobody harps on those doing their jobs correctly. Even as kids, our bad behavior seemed to garner the majority of the attention.

I'm just commenting about my experiences, and I know they're not shared by everyone. When one of my best friends bough his house, he hired an extremely competent HI. Besides, I was hoping my hostility was at least slightly veiled.

 

[wawireguy]

If the house is only 10-15 years old it might have plastic water pipe feeding it. If it wasn't used as a GEC previously and there were ground rods or other GEC already used I'd ask the "inspector" how he knows that you have 10' of metal piping outside the house. You could call the water company and ask them if they know what type of pipe feeds the residence. I agree with you that the water piping is bonded at the hot water heater and doesn't require any other bonding.

 

[M. D.]

.........
................You may want to caution the home owner that since his piping is metal it should only be repaired with metal. For his safety he should never allow PVC to be used for repair, or somebody could die in the tub, especially with an electric water heater.

What is the reasoning here ??

 

[sparks2000]

don't we need two grounding electrodes here guys???

 

[LarryFine]

... I'd ask the "inspector" how he knows that you have 10' of metal piping outside the house.

I've had an inspector ask me the same thing when I questioned whether my water-pipe connection qualified as an electrode (at a service upgrade).

I reasoned that driving a second rod was easier than digging up 10 feet of pipe to see whether it was continuous.

And thus, the two-rods-for-every-upgrade habit was born.

 

[sparks2000]

2 ground rods dont qualify as 2 grounding electrodes, it only counts as one!!!

 

[tryinghard]

The plumber does not have to install 10 feet of metalic conduit, but if they do - and it complies with all of 250 - then its an electrode and you need to use it. If the plumber doesn't then you simply bond the water somewhere accessable. The bonding is the effective fault path for any appliances like water heaters not the electrode or its conductor. Regarding electrodes what's important is to have one and if more exist bond them as a system.