Nitpicking 110.3 (B)

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iwire

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Massachusetts
I agree but just how often do we follow them to the letter ?
Had instructions said #12 wire and i used #10 would you fail it ?
At what point do we apply common since ?

I don't know Jim, if you to this thread

Installation instructions are considered to be a part of the UL Listing.

You can see ULs position is all instructions are mandatory.

Larry's position seems to be all instructions apply unless they do not make sense, I want to find the exception that allows commonsense.
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
I have a feeling that when the manufacture specifies an odd color for an installation such as this, it has less to do with function and more to do with them having a way to void the warrenty if you dont follow thier instructions.

Not necessarily. In this case it could easily just be a proofreading error. Not the end of the world, but gives us all something to talk about..:)
 

LJSMITH1

Senior Member
Location
Stratford, CT
I don't know Jim, if you to this thread

Installation instructions are considered to be a part of the UL Listing.

You can see ULs position is all instructions are mandatory.

Larry's position seems to be all instructions apply unless they do not make sense, I want to find the exception that allows commonsense.

Bob, I like the common sense approach as well (really- I do!). The question then becomes how do you determine what is "universal common sense" over what someone else thinks is "common sense". Surely you don't believe that everyone thinks in an identical manner. Do you? :)

In the electrical system construction world, there are so many iterations of possible installation scenarios, that it is virtually impossible for any manufacturer to address all of them in their design and performance of a product. The NEC provides a general sense of the requirements, but even then, the NEC cannot (and does not) address every possible application possibility. This is where the AHJ comes into play (hopefully with the "common sense" we are talking about).

When UL or any other NRTL sets out to "list" a product to a particular specification, they (in all their common sense wisdom), review the manufacturers instructions (if provided), determine and evaluate the 'critical or necessary' information, and then install & test accordingly.

If the Mfr. has a major problem with the critical information that they need to provide on a written instruction or label, they must correct it before the NRTL will list the product. The NRTL 'assumes' that the installer will heed the instructions with the product, and will stand by its listing of the product. The moment that the installation, application, or use of the product deviates from the intended use or written instruction from the manufacturer, they will not be 'liable' for any product failure, property loss, or injuries. I would bet that the same thing will go for the manufacturer.

I am not trying to take the side of any NRTL, I am merely stating what information they use for the listing process.

I certainly can appreciate and understand the myriad of difficulties you and others have on any given day to get the job done. I also respect the fact that you are handed a 'black and white' document and asked to unconditionally apply it to a Technicolor world. Unfortunately, 'one size fits all' does not apply, and at the end of the day, the AHJ has final say no matter what version of common sense we all have.:)
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
This is where we hope the inspector uses some thinking. Now if he wants to write the red tag then not much you can really do other than get a letter from mfgr saying its ok. And even then it could be argued that it wasn't tested with black wire just blue. It's time to get out of this trade if things get this bad.
 

muckusmc

Senior Member
Location
Roebling, NJ
Gentlemen,
Lets not forget that the manufacturer may have field techs that work on their equipment.
These field techs would be factory trained and would be looking for certain color wires.
We had one field tech that spent three days trying to get a remote working before we told him where the problem was. And this problem was with numbered wires. Field techs only know what they have been taught, and have a tendacity to overthink the problem.
 

Jim W in Tampa

Senior Member
Location
Tampa Florida
Gentlemen,
Lets not forget that the manufacturer may have field techs that work on their equipment.
These field techs would be factory trained and would be looking for certain color wires.
We had one field tech that spent three days trying to get a remote working before we told him where the problem was. And this problem was with numbered wires. Field techs only know what they have been taught, and have a tendacity to overthink the problem.

Sorry but if he is that easily confused then he is in wrong buisness or simply not qualified. We are talking about the supply voltage. Open disconnect and you see red wires not blue, give me a break this confuses him then send him back to school.
 
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