Handyman doing electrical work.

[growler]

I just can't understand how a professional engineer can say it is unprofessional to follow the public safery laws, his license should be up for review.

A PE probably wouldn't say that but many double Es don't really have much to do with the building trades ( many not even in their own homes).

I know one electrical engineer that works on aircraft, he is highy skilled and probably highly paid but he doesn't know the first thing about the building trades. Why should he, it's not his job?

I think his point of view is more from the homeowner's side than from the side of the service provider. I don't blame homeowners for wanting to save money but that doesn't give anyone the right to break the law.

 

[e57]

The little fire you see is from your bridges being burned. If I was your ex-customer, your unprofessionalism would prompt me to do everything in my power to black-list you from every friend, acquaintance, and contractor I knew. In this age of electronic networking and blogging, your 30 seconds of satisfaction could very well cost you much more.

The majority of the responses to this thread, and the many like it, leave me ashamed to be even remotely associated with this industry. And you guys wonder why so much bootleg work is being done? It is not always for cost.

I think I have to disagree with you - I see the stated act you're referring to as unprofessional to a degree - a lien is extreme - there are more subtle ways of going about it... But lets be clear the only reason you are there in the first place in this case is because the guy working inside lacks a license to do the service, the EC cost more - and knows he couldn't get away with that service as easily. And the Homeowner is knowingly or unknowingly roping you into his illegal work, and maybe at the suggestion of said hack working inside.

Say for instance, someone came to you. And said, "You cost too much... So I'm gonna have you engineer one portion of the job so I can get it through plan review. But once we see what your stamp and signature look like we're going to forge it onto all the rest of the documents we need for a broader scope of work." (I'm sure there might even be some EC's who do something to that degree to you from time to time...)

I have found myself in the exact position as the OP many times with GC's and HO's who want me to have a permit open - then attempt to rope my permit in with the ones they have for other work - being done by someone else. I had a GC who considers himself a jack of all trades try to stick his job card in my inspectors hands as I was walking away to get him to sign the electrical portion on his remodel - when the service I was doing had nothing to do with the scope of his permit. And the inspector almost unwittingly did it... And when I told the inspector about it he was furious - and had every right to be. Now the OP may not be involved in such a blatant act of fraud like that - but could be - behind his back. So yes - I think you need to protect yourself from much bigger fish than some nasty-gram on Yelp.com....

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I really don't understand your comment, Kdog does have a legal right to report this code violation so that's not unprofessional.

It's not about calling an inspector. I said he was unprofessional because he threatened the customer with it. I don't know exactly what was said with his customer, but his attitude is nevertheless very vindictive, which is what is very unprofessional.

Rick, the majority (if not all) is cost.

Yes, and so is the tattletaling. Some here have implied that they tattletale due to public safety concerns, when really it is because of money. Whether I agree with the tattletaling or not, I wasn't commenting about that.

 

[growler]

Some here have implied that they tattletale due to public safety concerns, when really it is because of money.

It's not that easy to seperate money from public safety concerns. The police department has a sign on their cars that say "To serve and protect". I guess they really need a sign that says "to serve, protect and collect", because I happen to know that when they stop being paid they stop work.

To protect a business interest (by reporting) is not being a tattletale, it's useing the only tools the law allows to put an end to unfair competition. Back in the old days when others were found grazing on your land you would just shoot them. People say that a customer doesn't belong to anyone and that's correct but the trade does belong to those that are authorised to work in it legally. There is a cost associated with being a legal contractor, nothing in this world is free.

 

[Kdog76]

It's not about calling an inspector. I said he was unprofessional because he threatened the customer with it. I don't know exactly what was said with his customer, but his attitude is nevertheless very vindictive, which is what is very unprofessional.

Okay, In my case I was given the job, told to do it. I did not call the inspector or pull a permit, nor did I threaten the customer with an inspection at ANY time. Our local AHJ has got the name AND number of every handyman out there and is NOT AFRAID to check in on these guys while ON THE JOB. Our AHJ does not require a permit to be pulled on jobs less then $500 in material. Had I pulled one anyway, (and some local contractors pull one on EVERY job regardless) the HO would not have known. (meaning the inspector could have shown up at ANY time). He DID get someone else to do the job, (after I was told to go do it) without a permit being pulled (which I COULD have done right on the spot because I was GIVEN the job). I made arrangements / postpone things to fit him in my schedule ASAP. I call the next day, and he tells me someone else got to it already with NO heads up or a call from him...Who's unprofessional here?

Yes, and so is the tattletaling. Some here have implied that they tattletale due to public safety concerns, when really it is because of money. Whether I agree with the tattletaling or not, I wasn't commenting about that.

Had I pulled the permit (which maybe I should have done knowing I got the job) both the HO and Mr. Unlicensed would have been fined. Would have been a $750 fine for the handyman performing electrical work without a contractors license. These are the local ordinances here. Then a permit would HAVE to be pulled (double permit fee + $100 fine) would come to about $1000. Just about the money, right? Well, maybe my unprofessionalism just saved them BOTH about $1000, BY KEEPING MOUTH SHUT.
Before you call ANYONE here a tattle tale check your facts. I did NOTHING wrong here and NEVER acted unprofessional. I NEVER CALLED HIM IN. I just gave him a fair warning, which saved them a lot of dough.

My bad? Maybe for NOT calling him on it.

 

[Kdog76]

The little fire you see is from your bridges being burned. If I was your ex-customer,

Then you would be just that.
Your math skills should be pretty good. Half of zero is still zero.

 

[e57]

It's not about calling an inspector. I said he was unprofessional because he threatened the customer with it. I don't know exactly what was said with his customer, but his attitude is nevertheless very vindictive, which is what is very unprofessional.

Yes, and so is the tattletaling. Some here have implied that they tattletale due to public safety concerns, when really it is because of money. Whether I agree with the tattletaling or not, I wasn't commenting about that.

I think it has more to do with CYA.... Often I don't want the low-ball work inside for the type of customers that often think they are saving a buck by having handy-guy do it... What I don't want is the liability for some type of fire or injury due to his work - when I was paid to, and only performed work on, and only pulled a permit for a service panel and meter. Which handy-guy would have tried to sell as well - but lacks the license to do so.... Which is the only reason I might have been there to begin with - otherwise handy-guy would have done it all... But his name is not on the green tag or the permit when I am there doing a limited scope. And if the building - to include it's occupants are destroyed by fire - I want it very clear that I did the "service equipment only"... And not just be "Electrical..." So in my case it is more for legal protection - for myself, the client, and the AHJ...

 

[e57]

I have also flat out refused to connect circuits (or even put them in the panel) that are from on-going unpermitted work - If the inpector asks - I say "I have no idea what that is, or where it goes. It may be due to work on-going that is outside my scope - please note the number of circuits I am connecting..." IMO that is not "tattle-taling" that is covering your donkey...

 

[kbsparky]

As far as I know, ANYONE can R+R devices and luminaires with out a permit or an inspection.
Maybe in some other areas this is not the case....

Yeah, don't try that in New Jersey for example. I think you need a license and permit even to spit on the sidewalk over there .... :roll:

 

[jaylectricity]

I have also flat out refused to connect circuits (or even put them in the panel) that are from on-going unpermitted work - If the inpector asks - I say "I have no idea what that is, or where it goes. It may be due to work on-going that is outside my scope - please note the number of circuits I am connecting..." IMO that is not "tattle-taling" that is covering your donkey...

I've had a situation where the "GC" (and I put that in quotes for a reason) was doing work in a basement. He was also a plumber, he was doing some plumbing, and he was adding a few walls where I put some new receptacles. The basement had flooded and he was going under the guise of just replacing the sheetrock.

I was adding a few plugs, and upgrading their service from 60 amps to 100 amps. I pulled a permit for my work. Called the inspector. While he was on the job site he asked me if there was a building permit. I told him that I had no idea what else was going on in there, but that I wanted my work inspected.

I don't think he ever shared this info with the rest of the building department. He did his job, inspected my work, told me to add an expansion coupling to the riser (which I should have known in the first place) and that was that.

 

[Dnkldorf]

I have a customer that I'm doing some work for in MN. He has hired a handyman to do some of the electrical work because he told me that my prices are to high. What would you do?

A: Turn in the handyman to the state
B. Warn the home owner
C. Tell the AHJ

D: Realize the market I am working in, and the customers that are in it. Either I learn how to operate in this market and take the good with the bad, or get out of it and into another area of EC.


For goodness sake, your competition is handy men services.

Why?

 

[e57]

For goodness sake, your competition is handy men services.

Why?

Because they'll claim to do anything at low-ball costs... I find them everywhere... Residential - commercial TI's, and few times installing industrial equipment... Since they have no fear of getting in over their heads the sky is the limit... We may go on about the electrical trade of the jack of all... But I have witnessed some good structural damage a while back done by a guy with "no job too small" hand painted on a station wagon - replaced foundation piers with fence post bases... He also 'up-graded' a panel by running THHN in the walls with no EGC and no conduit either.... Used that bonding strap to the neutral bar for a ground.

 

[Power Tech]

I have this situation all the time.

I inform the customer of there legal rights as to the state of California contractor laws and am required to have them sign the business and profession codes.

I explain they have no recourse except for suing in civil court, if they hire an unlicensed person. They have recourse with Consumer Affairs, if they hire a licensed contractor.

We are regulated by the state. If I do something wrong she can call them and I will have to correct and or pay a fine and could loose my license. Then explain the insurance issues. Then explain the laws are in place to protect them.

I know a great plumber who is unlicensed and works as a handyman.

He has referred me to some very good customers.

All that said. Personally I would not have someone who is uninsured and unlicensed to work on my house. I always hire the best. If not, I may as well do it (no).

I never push or rat out. I only educate and give options. If they think I am too expensive, It is someone I would not want to do work for now or in the future anyway.

It does irritate me these unlicensed guys advertise in the local (left wing rag) paper. I do wish they would make a Handyman license or at least make a law they cannot advertise.

 

[satcom]

I just love the the word tattletale, lets all band together and protect anyone doing anything wrong, sure we can start with small things and then hide criminal conduct, because we would not want to tattletale on anyone. What ever happened to men that could stand tall and do the right thing, and not follow the weak.

 

[iwire]

I just love the the word tattletale, lets all band together and protect anyone doing anything wrong, sure we can start with small things and then hide criminal conduct, because we would not want to tattletale on anyone. What ever happened to men that could stand tall and do the right thing, and not follow the weak.

I find nothing 'unmanly' about minding ones own business.

 

[macmikeman]

And then another point of view. It is illegal to willfully "aid and abeit" unlicensed contractors in my state. If you support it as a licensed contractor by not reporting unlicensed activity when it is happening on a project you are connected with it is considered as such. The penalty is revocation of the license awarded to you for a minimum of one calendar year if convicted of this by the Regulated Industries Department of the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. When we apply for our contractors license the exact same scenerio is one we are presented with that results in that revocation if the contractors board decides you to be guilty and taking part in "aiding and abeiting" unlicensed contracting. It might be a stretch to find you guilty if you have no direct contractual obligation with the unlicensed party, and difficult to find you guilty, still you are by the requirements of the board to turn in any unlicensed contractors you find conducting such business.

 

[iwire]

And then another point of view. It is illegal to willfully "aid and abeit" unlicensed contractors in my state. If you support it as a licensed contractor by not reporting unlicensed activity when it is happening on a project you are connected with it is considered as such. The penalty is revocation of the license awarded to you for a minimum of one calendar year if convicted of this by the Regulated Industries Department of the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. When we apply for our contractors license the exact same scenerio is one we are presented with that results in that revocation if the contractors board decides you to be guilty and taking part in "aiding and abeiting" unlicensed contracting. It might be a stretch to find you guilty if you have no direct contractual obligation with the unlicensed party, and difficult to find you guilty, still you are by the requirements of the board to turn in any unlicensed contractors you find conducting such business.

Well then I guess I am screwed as there is quite often unlicensed work going on in the same buildings I am doing licensed permitted work. Seems like that should be the AHJs issue when they come out for my work. I am not an arm of the licensing enforcement officials even if they want me to do their job for them.

In multi-tenant commercial properties I really do not see how my job is permitting and licensing enforcement of anybody but myself.

 

[Power Tech]

And then another point of view. It is illegal to willfully "aid and abeit" unlicensed contractors in my state. If you support it as a licensed contractor by not reporting unlicensed activity when it is happening on a project you are connected with it is considered as such. The penalty is revocation of the license awarded to you for a minimum of one calendar year if convicted of this by the Regulated Industries Department of the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. When we apply for our contractors license the exact same scenerio is one we are presented with that results in that revocation if the contractors board decides you to be guilty and taking part in "aiding and abeiting" unlicensed contracting. It might be a stretch to find you guilty if you have no direct contractual obligation with the unlicensed party, and difficult to find you guilty, still you are by the requirements of the board to turn in any unlicensed contractors you find conducting such business.

The laws here are a little different here.

It is who we contract with and the scope of work.

Something to be careful about is an unlicensed contractor posing as licensed.

I had a situation where a guy told me he was a contractor, gave me a card and I checked. His license was suspended.

I would have been contracting with an unlicensed contractor.

I ended up contracting directly with the owner and let this guy know what I thought of people that lie.

He eventually ended up getting sued over that job. My license could have been dinked, sued along with him, and would have lost my lean rights.

 

[satcom]

And then another point of view. It is illegal to willfully "aid and abeit" unlicensed contractors in my state. If you support it as a licensed contractor by not reporting unlicensed activity when it is happening on a project you are connected with it is considered as such. The penalty is revocation of the license awarded to you for a minimum of one calendar year if convicted of this by the Regulated Industries Department of the Department of Commerce and Consumer Affairs. When we apply for our contractors license the exact same scenerio is one we are presented with that results in that revocation if the contractors board decides you to be guilty and taking part in "aiding and abeiting" unlicensed contracting. It might be a stretch to find you guilty if you have no direct contractual obligation with the unlicensed party, and difficult to find you guilty, still you are by the requirements of the board to turn in any unlicensed contractors you find conducting such business.

Yes, that is the problem with letting it slide, as a licensed contractor, you can't support the unlicensed activity without putting your license, and living at risk. Now if your not a licensed contractor, or official, then you might want to just mind your own business, but even then, which path is the better one to follow, allow known law breakers to continue to operate, or have respect for yourself and the laws we all depend on the keep our socity glued together. We all have the freedom to make choices.

 

[e57]

I find nothing 'unmanly' about minding ones own business.

Bob - not trying to yank your chain... There are limits to that... This one is extreme and ticks me off just thinking about it!

But on topic of unlicensed contracting: Informing the consumer about licensing requirements is part of consumer protection, but as mentioned before you need to CYA. Turning a blind eye is practically guilt as far as the state I'm in is concerned... The law is pretty wide open to interpetation...

7114(a) Aiding or abetting an unlicensed person to evade the
provisions of this chapter or combining or conspiring with an
unlicensed person, or allowing one's license to be used by an
unlicensed person, or acting as agent or partner or associate, or
otherwise, of an unlicensed person with the intent to evade the
provisions of this chapter constitutes a cause for disciplinary
action.
(b) A licensee who is found by the registrar to have violated
subdivision (a) shall, in accordance with the provisions of this
article, be subject to the registrar's authority pursuant to Section
7099 to order payment of a specified sum to an injured party,
including, but not limited to, payment for any injury resulting from
the acts of the unlicensed person.

While I might not fill out one of these forms myself - I will educate my customer, and will make sure my scope is clear, and that I don't get inadvertently tied to some low-ball Louie, or have his work confused with mine... But if it is heinous - yeah - I'll fill out a form - just to CYA...
Forms:

For Inspectors/AHJ
For contractors and public