GFCI Dead-Fronts Devices

[Ragin Cajun]

What are these used for?

RC

 

[480sparky]

What are these used for?

RC

GFI protection where no receptacle is required or desired.

For instance, I routinely installed dead-front GFIs in the master bedroom closet of large custom dwellings for the whirlypool in the master bath. I don't have to worry about the HO plugging anything in to a dedicated circuit and overloading it. Placing it in the closet would require the user to completely remove him/her self from the tub in order to reset it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

What are these used for?

RC

I use them as a disconnect for a hydromassage tub since I don't like using GFCI breakers and I don't want the GFCI under the tub. I believe in 2008 the zGFCI cannot be under the tub

 

[glene77is]

GFCI Dead Front Devices are used to convert a standard branch circuit into a locally controlled GFCI circuit.
Consider a Jacuzi. You bring over a 20A Dedicated Circuit, to the Jacuzi room, run into a GFCI Dead Front, then on to the switch on the Jacuzi, and then to the pump motor which is hidden behind the water tight marble front on the tub. The GFCI is local/visible/handy and all parts of the Jacuzi are protected.

The other option is to place the GFCI cb in the Load Center, which is not local, not handy, more expensive, etc. And I have seen situations where a GFCI cb was not made to fit an older Load Center.

It is more cost effective to use a GFCI Dead Front Device. That sells the job more often.

Next,
we need a AFCI Dead Front Device
so we can have local control over the living areas.

 

[480sparky]

...... I believe in 2008 the zGFCI cannot be under the tub

That would be a new one on me!

 

[Dennis Alwon]

That would be a new one on me!

You never heard of a zgfci. :grin: I should have stated the art for others

680.71 Protection.
Hydromassage bathtubs and their associated electrical components shall be on an individual branch circuit(s) and protected by a readily accessible ground-fault circuit interrupter. All 125-volt, single-phase receptacles not exceeding 30 amperes and located within 1.83 m (6 ft) measured horizontally of the inside walls of a hydromassage tub shall be protected by a ground-fault circuit interrupter.

 

[480sparky]

You never heard of a zgfci. :grin: I should have stated the art for others

I think you could simply remove the skirt/panel under the tub and reset it, couldn't you? I mean, that's the reason for the skirt/panel..... to allow access to the workings under the tub. Therefore, it's accessible.

Yeah, I know some people don't want the access panels, so the pump and GFI and such get buried. That's why I put my dead-front in the master closet as SOP.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Some of those tub surrounds are not very easily removed, esp. by homeowners. With the definition of readily accessible I would say that under the tub is not readily accessible.

Accessible, Readily (Readily Accessible). Capable of being reached quickly for operation, renewal, or inspections without requiring those to whom ready access is requisite to climb over or remove obstacles or to resort to portable ladders, and so forth.

 

[480sparky]

Some of those tub surrounds are not very easily removed, esp. by homeowners. With the definition of readily accessible I would say that under the tub is not readily accessible.

Not being disrespective here, Dennis, but that is only your opinion.

I agree that some panels and skirts can be a pain to remove. Yet some can simply be removed by pulling on them as they are held in with Velcro, magnets or some other simple mechanism. I've even seen some people go so far as to make the underside of the tub accessible from the adjacent room in order to make things neat and clean in the bathroom.

But to make a blanket statement that GFIs are disallowed under the tub isn't always correct. I can understand your point of view, and agree with you up to a point. But without accurate information about the final finish of the bathroom, I just avoid the question entirely (as well as avoid potential headaches and additional unpaid work) by installing a deadfront GFI in the closet.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I avoid it also with a dead front GFCI on the wall near the tub. But if the tub has any surround at all I don't see how you can say it would readily accessible under the tub. The definition says you cannot remove obstacles to get to the device to be readily accessible. How do you argue that? I just don't see it as complying.

Yes it is my opinion but it appears the wording is there to support that but as everything in the NEC one could interpret things very differently. In either case I think a GFCI under the tub is a bad install.

 

[480sparky]

I avoid it also with a dead front GFCI on the wall near the tub. But if the tub has any surround at all I don't see how you can say it would readily accessible under the tub. The definition says you cannot remove obstacles to get to the device to be readily accessible. How do you argue that? I just don't see it as complying.

Yes it is my opinion but it appears the wording is there to support that but as everything in the NEC one could interpret things very differently.....

By your definition then, breakers in a panel are a Code violation because you must remove the panel cover, and possibly a deadfront, to access them. As well as devices in a box, as you would need to remove the cover plate.

....In either case I think a GFCI under the tub is a bad install.

I agree 118.429%.

 

[iwire]

Not being disrespective here, Dennis, but that is only your opinion.

In my opinion Dennis' opinion is the opinion of the CMP. :grin:

From the ROP

17-164 Log #2343 NEC-P17

Final Action: Accept in Principle

(680.71)​

____________________________________________________________​

Submitter: ​

​

Andre R. Cartal, Princeton Borough Building Dept.

Recommendation: ​

​

Add new text:

A GFCI receptacle shall not be located in the tub motor space or cavity.​

Substantiation: ​

​

The installation of a GFCI type receptacle in the tub motor

space is not apparent to the average homeowner as evidenced by the many
complaints received in our office. Even if the tub occupant is aware of the
location of the receptacle, it does not seem appropriate to expect a person to
exit the tub and remove the side of the tub or the access panel to reset the
receptacle.​

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Panel Statement: ​

​

See panel action on Proposal 17-165.

Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: ​

​

Affirmative: 11

____________________________________________________________
​

​

​

​

​

​

​

​

Now the ROC

17-109 Log #1953 NEC-P17 ​

Final Action: Reject

(680.71)
​

​

________________________________________________________
Submitter: ​

​

Frederic P. Hartwell, Hartwell Electrical Services, Inc.

​

​

Comment on Proposal No: ​

​

17-165

​

​

Recommendation: ​

​

1. Revise the first sentence as follows:

Hydromassage bathtubs and their associated electrical components shall be
on a dedicated circuit and protected by a ground-fault circuit-interrupter.
2. Add the following sentence to 680.73 at the end:
Where the hydromassage bathtub is cord- and plug-connected, the receptacle
shall be installed so that its face is within direct view and not more than 300​

mm (1 ft) of a service access opening.

Substantiation: ​

​

The proposed requirement for “readily accessible” is

excessive, since this device will not need to be reached in an emergency. On
the other hand we routinely see devices so well concealed that two flashlights
and a mirror are needed to find them, and a contortionist is required to
disconnect the tub. This language refers to a receptacle and not a GFCI device
because the issue is the disconnect ability regardless of the type of device.
Many tubs are protected by a GFCI circuit breaker, for example.
​

​

Panel Meeting Action: Reject
Panel Statement: ​

​

With regard to the first item, GFCIs are required to be tested

on a monthly basis and therefore must be accessible to be tested.
With regard to the second item, the recommendation is not specific as to
whether the outlet is located internal or external to the access compartment.
​

​

Number Eligible to Vote: 11
Ballot Results: ​

​

Affirmative: 10
Ballot Not Returned: 1 Gill, C.
​

I think it is clear the CMP does not want the GFCI under the tub.
​

 

[480sparky]

In my opinion Dennis' opinion is the opinion of the CMP. :grin:

From the ROP






Now the ROC








I think it is clear the CMP does not want the GFCI under the tub.
[/left]

So how are you going to properly disconnect the tub 'in an emergency'?

 

[iwire]

So how are you going to properly disconnect the tub 'in an emergency'?

I have no idea what you're asking about or how it fits into this discussion.

 

[480sparky]

I have no idea what you're asking about or how it fits into this discussion.

Try reading what you quoted from the ROC/ROP.

 

[Howard Burger]

RC - another handy use of the dead-front gfi is in locations like garages where receptacles are all now req'd to be gfi. A dead-front gfi is useful where reseting one would be incovenient, like up on the ceiling for the UH and GDO. For the UH/GDO circuit, I put one up about 60 in. high on the wall - out of the way, but easily reset if needed.

 

[LarryFine]

What are these used for?

Think of it as a feed-through GFCI receptacle without the slots.

By your definition then, breakers in a panel are a Code violation because you must remove the panel cover, and possibly a deadfront, to access them. As well as devices in a box, as you would need to remove the cover plate.

Are the bodies of those items required to be readily accessible, or merely their exposed front parts?

 

[480sparky]

..........Are the bodies of those items required to be readily accessible, or merely their exposed front parts?

I just fail to see the difference between having to open a panel door to reset a breaker and having to open a door to reset a GFI.