ungrounded circuits

[rickl]

what do you guys do with 240 volt ungrounded circuits on old homes 12-2 ng (baseboard heaters). i always recommend running a new grounded circuit but never end up with the job, the next contractor say's the circuit is grandfathered in and just replaces the heater with no ground & no permit.
i cannot find anything in the code about ungrounded 240 volt circuits (besided stoves & dryer).
the situation i'm talking about is replacement of old heaters.
my thinking is any work done to these circuit would require me to bring a ground to it, or gfci the circuit. maybe i'm missing something?
thanks for your help

 

[Dennis Alwon]

I agree that it should be brought up to code but I am not sure the NEC requires that with replacement. I am sure every area is different for what the AHJ would have in mind.

 

[LarryFine]

the situation i'm talking about is replacement of old heaters.

In a pure replacement situation, I agree with leaving the circuit as is, as far as code is concerned.

Price it both ways, along with your reasons for the EGC, and do whichever job the customer chooses.

 

[rickl]

{ I am sure every area is different for what the AHJ would have in mind.}
in my area we have 4 inspectors & you have know idea which one you'll get on inspection & it seems each one has a different interpretation on the nec & how thing should be done.

{Price it both ways, along with your reasons for the EGC, and do whichever job the customer chooses.}
99% of the time its going to be the cheap way. most HO's thinking is it worked 20 years without a ground why do i need it now.


{In a pure replacement situation, I agree with leaving the circuit as is, as far as code is concerned}
this is my real question, where in the code does it say you don't have to ground the heater if there isn't a ground present. All heaters i've installed all state HEATER MUST BE GROUNDED.
my main concern is somebody get hurt & the liability after somebody get hurt.
i'm not trying to be a smartazz or stepping on somebody's toes, but my interpretation of 110.3(b) reads you must install equipment accordance to the instructions of the equipment. but maybe my interpretation is wrong.
thanks for your response's

 

[lauraj]

I agree you must follow 110.3 and install according to the listing of the product in order to be code compliant.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

When the wiring method and the heaters were originally installed, the EGC was not part of the requirement. So all was fine.


The new equipment being installed has installation instructions requiring the equipment to be grounded. Hence you will have to find a code compliant method for grounding the equipment, as a new installation.

 

[TT009]

This is a tough one. No where that I have found says if you are replacing heating equipment.

Look at 250.86 exception 1: to me this would mean that you would have to ground the enclosure because the base board is not protect from contact by persons.

250.130(C) is giving you options for adding EGC to "non-grounding receptacles or branch circuit extensions". If your not extending the branch circuit and your not add "new" wire, to me you wouldn't need to ground the equipment.?

424.6 does require you to follow the listing and requirements of the equipment.

I would say just install a GFCI 2-pole breaker...maybe $100 but it would save you time and money in the long run?

 

[rickl]

thanks for all the reply's
but i'm sticking with running a new grounded cable to all ungrounded heaters. probably will lose alot of work ( my kids like hotdogs better than steak anyways ) but i'll sleep good at night.