Adding Neutral/ground bars

[Oakey]

In a thread or two we discussed adding ground bars to panels if there aren't enough spaces for neutrals etc. I have 2 questions for this application, if someone could help me I'd appreciate it.
I have a customer who decided to do his own service, the EI told him he had to many wires doubled up on the neutral bars on the main service panel . He installed 4 additional bars remotely in the panel and jumped them with #4 copper stranded and this is a 200 amp upgrade. Is what he did ok?

Secondly the grounding wire from the water meter goes to one of these added bars, for some reason this doesn't seem right and needs to go to the main bus. Is what he did acceptable?

Thx for any help.

 

[mcclary's electrical]

In a thread or two we discussed adding ground bars to panels if there aren't enough spaces for neutrals etc. I have 2 questions for this application, if someone could help me I'd appreciate it.
I have a customer who decided to do his own service, the EI told him he had to many wires doubled up on the neutral bars on the main service panel . He installed 4 additional bars remotely in the panel and jumped them with #4 copper stranded and this is a 200 amp upgrade. Is what he did ok?

Secondly the grounding wire from the water meter goes to one of these added bars, for some reason this doesn't seem right and needs to go to the main bus. Is what he did acceptable?

Thx for any help.

The grounded wire from water main needs to go directly to the service neutral buss, not the can. You are correct. The installed bars he put in can have grounds landed on them,,,but not neutrals. The #4 jumper from bar to bar was not needed. When inspectors see things like that, it clues them that the craftsman was an amateure. Then they pick it to death. No neutrals landed on the added bars and you're fine.

 

[raider1]

Are there neutral conductors landed on these new bars?

The grounding electrode conductor needs to terminate to the grounded conductor at the service. 250.24(A) permits the grounding electrode conductor to terminate on the equipment grounding bar where the main bonding jumper is a wire and connects to the EGC bar.

Chris

 

[Dennis Alwon]

A #4 may be a fine jumper but it would depend on the calculated load of the neutrals that were moved to that bar. I would be very careful with this install to make sure the neutral isn't overloaded.

 

[Buck Parrish]

In a thread or two we discussed adding ground bars to panels if there aren't enough spaces for neutrals etc. I have 2 questions for this application, if someone could help me I'd appreciate it.
I have a customer who decided to do his own service, the EI told him he had to many wires doubled up on the neutral bars on the main service panel . He installed 4 additional bars remotely in the panel and jumped them with #4 copper stranded and this is a 200 amp upgrade. Is what he did ok?

Secondly the grounding wire from the water meter goes to one of these added bars, for some reason this doesn't seem right and needs to go to the main bus. Is what he did acceptable?

Thx for any help.

I think what he did is okay. However I don't have a reference.
I agree the water line grounding should go to the main neutral. .

 

[iwire]

The grounded wire from water main needs to go directly to the service neutral buss, not the can. You are correct. The installed bars he put in can have grounds landed on them,,,but not neutrals. The #4 jumper from bar to bar was not needed. When inspectors see things like that, it clues them that the craftsman was an amateure. Then they pick it to death. No neutrals landed on the added bars and you're fine.

How about some codes to back that up?

 

[mcclary's electrical]

How about some codes to back that up?

The jumper IS NEEDED if he lands neutrals on the bars,,,,but my example is for grounds only with no jumper.

 

[Oakey]

Yes there are neutrals as well as grounds on the remote bars with the #4 run to it. I should have stated that.

 

[raider1]

Yes there are neutrals as well as grounds on the remote bars with the #4 run to it. I should have stated that.

It may be tough to calculate what size the jumper wire needs to be if you have neutral conductors landed on the EGC bars.

The 2008 NEC has a new section that specifically prohibits the panel enclosure from being used as part of the grounded conductor path. (See 200.2(B))

Chris

 

[Mike01]

It may be tough to calculate what size the jumper wire needs to be if you have neutral conductors landed on the EGC bars.

The 2008 NEC has a new section that specifically prohibits the panel enclosure from being used as part of the grounded conductor path. (See 200.2(B))

Chris

As raider1 stated the enclosure is now prohibited as being used as part of the conductor path so only ground wires can be added to this "ground bar" if the bar is isolated using a kit from the equipment manufacturer then the #4 would be adequate based on a load calc? if the bar is used for only equipment grounds then you can just attach it to the panel. correct me if I am wrong..

 

[raider1]

As raider1 stated the enclosure is now prohibited as being used as part of the conductor path so only ground wires can be added to this "ground bar" if the bar is isolated using a kit from the equipment manufacturer then the #4 would be adequate based on a load calc? if the bar is used for only equipment grounds then you can just attach it to the panel. correct me if I am wrong..

Sounds like you have it right.

Chris

 

[Oakey]

I need to clarify something pls. If there are neutrals in these bars do they need to be mounted on an isolation piece or can they be screwed right to the panel when a jumper wire is run?

 

[Mike01]

Neutral Bars

Neutral Bars

If you are adding a "neutral bar" to the panelboard it need to be isolated from the enclosure and connected with a conductor to the grounded bar in the panel as stated a supplemental "neutral bar" is not allowed by code to be connected directly to the panel without being isolated as the panel enclosure cannot be used as a grounded conductor path as raider1 pointed out, also the conductor utilized to connect to the added isolated neutral bar would have to be sized based on the neutral current totals of the connected loads.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

If you are adding a "neutral bar" to the panelboard it need to be isolated from the enclosure and connected with a conductor to the grounded bar in the panel as stated a supplemental "neutral bar" is not allowed by code to be connected directly to the panel without being isolated as the panel enclosure cannot be used as a grounded conductor path as raider1 pointed out, also the conductor utilized to connect to the added isolated neutral bar would have to be sized based on the neutral current totals of the connected loads.

Mike,
Assuming that this is a service panel the rule in 200.2(B) would not require an isolated neutral bar.

200.2(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.

 

[Karl H]

A #4 may be a fine jumper but it would depend on the calculated load of the neutrals that were moved to that bar. I would be very careful with this install to make sure the neutral isn't overloaded.

This was my first "Red Flag."

 

[TT009]

Tell me if Im wrong, but if you read 250.24(A)1, it pretty much tells you that your GEC must be landed on the bus of the grounded conductor.

If you were adding grounded counductors to an isolated bar, would you not have to follow 250.28 for the size of your GEC which would be a #4 for a 200A panel.

Like Chris says...the ground bars would have to be insulated because of 200.2

 

[TT009]

Nevermind on the #4...The grounded conductor would have to be sized for the load...

Just move all the grounding conductor from the neutral bars to the add grounding bar and vise versa

 

[Mike01]

Mike,
Assuming that this is a service panel the rule in 200.2(B) would not require an isolated neutral bar.

200.2(B) Continuity. The continuity of a grounded conductor shall not depend on a connection to a metallic enclosure, raceway, or cable armor.

Don, to make sure I understand if this were to be a"service entrance"panelboard the connection directly to the panel would be acceptable as long as you also provided a supplemental conductor connecting the new ground/neutral bus to the grounded bus factory installed? so the requirement does not say "tho shall not" it appears it say if you do do this you must also...I Do not have my code book on me I will read the section tommorow.

 

[Pierre C Belarge]

Tell me if Im wrong, but if you read 250.24(A)1, it pretty much tells you that your GEC must be landed on the bus of the grounded conductor.

If you were adding grounded counductors to an isolated bar, would you not have to follow 250.28 for the size of your GEC which would be a #4 for a 200A panel.

Like Chris says...the ground bars would have to be insulated because of 200.2

"250.24(A)(4) Main Bonding Jumper as Wire or Busbar.
Where the main bonding jumper specified in 250.28 is a wire or busbar and is installed from the grounded conductor terminal bar or bus to the equipment grounding terminal bar or bus in the service equipment, the grounding electrode conductor shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding terminal, bar, or bus to which the main bonding jumper is connected."

 

[benaround]

I need to clarify something pls. If there are neutrals in these bars do they need to be mounted on an isolation piece or can they be screwed right to the panel when a jumper wire is run?

Oakey, You do NOT need an isolation piece with the jumper wire run, the enclosure is not

being used to carry neutral current. This is a service panel as mentioned in the OP, you

could not do this to a 'sub-panel'.