not sure what you are saying, i never said that i didn't understand. the kitchen and dining room wiring straight forward.
i think you may have been referring to someone else's post.
Receptacle for TV in the Kitchen
- Thread starter Pierre C Belarge
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not sure what you are saying, i never said that i didn't understand. the kitchen and dining room wiring straight forward.
i think you may have been referring to someone else's post.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Sorry
I was posting to the microwave / range hood scenario, specifically dealing with the wall space for counters. I think I see now you where talking about the kitchen small appliance circuit, wall space and counter space.
So I guess from what I understand from all this is all the recepticals or connections must be on a 20 SABC???
Dishwasher, Microwave, Disposal, Exahst Hood, Refrigerator, Electric WTR HTR, TV recept., UC lighting, what about kick plate lighting?
All outlets are either in cabinets, above the counter of more than 20" or 5 1/2ft from the floor, or are individual branch circuits.
Dishwasher, Microwave, Disposal, Exahst Hood, Refrigerator, Electric WTR HTR, TV recept., UC lighting, what about kick plate lighting?
All outlets are either in cabinets, above the counter of more than 20" or 5 1/2ft from the floor, or are individual branch circuits.
no:
SABC 101:
210.11(C) Dwelling Units.
(1) Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by 210.52(B).
210.52(B) Small Appliances.
(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.
Exception No. 1: In addition to the required receptacles specified by 210.52, switched receptacles supplied from a general-purpose branch circuit as defined in 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, shall be permitted.
Exception No. 2: The receptacle outlet for refrigeration equipment shall be permitted to be supplied from an individual branch circuit rated 15 amperes or greater.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
So I guess from what I understand from all this is all the receptacles or connections must be on a 20 SABC???
NO!
Dishwasher, rec. Appliance disconnect. Usually in a cabinet excluded from the Small appliance branch circuit.
Microwave, if rec. is out side of the defined wall areas or in a cabinet excluded from the SABC
Disposal, Rec. appliance disconnect usually in a cabinet exclude from SABC
Exhaust Hood, Rec. is usually in a cabinet excluded by 210.52 from being on a Small appliance branch circuit. Defined as a gen purpose branch circuit.
Refrigerator, Given special permission to be on an individual 15 amp circuit in the kitchen. To be a gen purpose branch circuit it would have had to be given permission to supply TWO or more Outlets
Electric WTR HTR, Not sure where this fits in?
TV recept., usually above 51/2 ft. no special exception given to extend the SABC to a TV rec.. Must be supplied by a gen purpose BC
UC lighting, Gen purpose branch circuit. Usually hard wired. If supplied through a rec. The rec needs to be outside the defined area
what about kick plate lighting? Branch circuit supplying by definition is a general purpose branch circuit. The rec. would have to be out side of the defined area’s
All Receptacle outlets in cabinets, above the counter more than 20" or 5 1/2ft from the floor, are in addition to the defined wall space and are in addition to the defined kitchen counter space are defined as general purpose branch circuits weather their 15 amp or 20 amp. The small appliance Branch circuit is only given one exception to extend more than 51/2 ft (clock Rec.) above floor, and since the small appliance branch circuit is not allowed no other outlets (all inclusive not just receptacle outlets) unless given permission by an exception.
“or are individual branch circuits”. Can be 15 amp if not serving the defined wall space or the defined kitchen counter wall space.
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curt swartz
Electrical Contractor - San Jose, CA
- Location
- San Jose, CA
- Occupation
- Electrical Contractor
The writers of the NEC Handbook seem to feel that additional receptacles can be connected to non small appliance circuits. Mike Holt also feels the same way. There was a thread similar to this quite a while back and Mike posted his opinion. See post 65 here http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=67178&highlight=dining&page=7
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
David
What you are quoting here is the requirements for the SAB circuits, and the receptacles supplied by them.
The wall space that is referenced to does not include the cabinet receptacles or receptacles above 5 1/2 feet from the floor. Hence one can install a 15 ampere rated receptacle and branch circuit in the cabinet below the sink for the disposal or dishwasher, and can install a 15 ampere rate receptacle and Branch circuit for a receptacle that is located above 5 1/2 feet as well.
If that was no so, the reference back to would use an exception for items (1)-(4)
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
sounds like we agree
electricmanscott
Senior Member
- Location
- Boston, MA
A cord and plug connected range hoood must have an individual barnch circuit supplying the receptacle. 422.16 B 4
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
Thank You!
corection:
Exhaust Hood, excluded from being on a Small appliance branch circuit. Defined as a gen purpose branch circuit
Exhaust Hood, when supplied by a flexible cord, Rec. is usually in a cabinet excluded by 210.52 from being on a Small appliance branch circuit. Defined as individual branch circuit
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can you give a code reference to support the highlighed section? if it is in the kitchen/dining room and not covered by any exception it has to be a 20amp circuit. there is no place in the nec (for kitchen/dining room) that gives height as an example. even at that height it is still considered to be "wall space", defined wall space....never read anywhere where that exists.
- Location
- Massachusetts
You can say it all day long but I do not think there is a clear answer, all of our posts are opinions.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
The definition of wall space as it applies to the required rec. outlets serving that wall space can be interpolated from whit it is not.
Or I you prefer the required rec. serving the wall space have placement restrictions
Wall space required rec.
210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
(1) Part of a luminaire or appliance, or
(2) Controlled by a wall switch in accordance with 210.70(A)(1), Exception No. 1, or
(3) Located within cabinets or cupboards, or
(4) Located more than 1.7 m (51/2 ft) above the floor
210.52 (3) Floor Receptacles. Receptacle outlets in floors shall not be counted as part of the required number of receptacle outlets unless located within 450 mm (18 in.) of the wall.
To participate as a member in the family of required rec. outlets. you would have to evaluate the rec. outlets location as far as its relationship to placement on or near the wall it is serving. To be a member in the family of required rec. outlets you have to be a rec. outlet in addition to the exclude from being a family member in 210.52 (1),(2),(3),(4). To participate as a member of the family of required rec. outlets the rec. outlet would have to be located no more than18 in from the wall the rec. outlet is installed to serve.
The required rec. outlets in kitchen/ dinning/ and like rooms are to be supplied by a (dedicated) small appliance circuit. How do we know its dedicated because 210.52.(B) (2) says the small appliance circuit shall have no other outlets.. (we are ready discussed the exceptions to this)
Lets walk through the chain of events backwards
(1) A small appliance branch circuit shall serve no other outlets
(2) In the kitchen, pantry, breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit, the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits are required
(3) in every kitchen, dining room receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with the general provisions specified in 210.52(A)(1) through (A)(3).
(4) 210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets.
(5) This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. The receptacles required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle that is:
The receptacles on the small appliance branch circuit are place to serve the wall area as required no further than 51/2 feet high no further on the floor than 18 in. from the wall.
Everyone has herded this before in this thread, and in the one that was linked from this thread, with that I rest. In you guys can discuss this further if you care to.
mivey
Senior Member
I would have bet we were right. But, out of respect for 480's knowledge, I thought I would re-visit after giving it a rest.You can say it all day long but I do not think there is a clear answer, all of our posts are opinions.
I just can't see it the way he does and he does not seem to have changed his mind. Maybe I am missing something and need to re-read in a different state of mind.
- Location
- Massachusetts
So would / do I.
But I was just pointing out all we have is opinions and not one of us has a lock on the facts.
david
Senior Member
- Location
- Pennsylvania
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
1. I think it is common ground that we all believe the two or more small appliance circuits are dedicated circuits.
There is a fundamental disagreement to what these circuits are dedicated to.
a. the kitchen, Dinning, breakfast, and like rooms.
b. The required rec. outlets in the Dinning, breakfast, and like rooms
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
Why are they there, what do they mean, and what information can they give us in understanding this section?
Lets walk your self through a living room to understand the reason for exception one in the kitchen.
I enter the living room through a door. (broken liner wall line) I turn left and start walking the unbroken liner wall line. At six ft I see a rec. on the wall mounted 24? off the floor all is good I walk another 12 ft until I encounter another rec. this rec. happens to be mounted 72? of the floor. That one is not one of the required rec I need one lower within 51/2 feet.
They exact same thing now it?s the dinning and the two rec plus the one I am adding are on a small appliance rec. cercuit. I now have one additional consideration can the clock rec be on a small appliance dedicated circuit. We all agree that it can be. But what did exception 1 mean? more importantly why did we need it.
Look at exception two why did we need it. The gas fired range is in the kitchen. The rec is on the wall, The range is an appliance, oh, wait a minuet the range is not a small appliance and the circuit is dedicated to the required rec. outlets supplying small appliances.
To you that might sound nit picky, the exception is there for a reason.
Look at the clock rec. outlet and exception 1. you can?t ignore it you have to take a position on why it is required before you can take a position on this whole section.
None of us believe it is there because its above the 5 ? ft and your not allowed any rec. out lets in that space in any or all of the rooms in a dwelling.
If your position is that the small appliance circuit is dedicated to the kitchen, dinning rm. ect. and incorporates all 110 volt 15 and 20 amp rec. mounted on the wall there is no need for the exception
If you position is that the small appliance circuit is dedicated to the 110 volt 15 and 20 amp required rec. outlets in the kitchen, dinning rm, ect. There is a need for the exception. That clock rec at 6 ft mounted on the wall is excluded as one of the required rec. and now you need an exception to extend the small appliance circuit.
Have fun guys all I ask is you consider this concept. Take a position on why the clock exception was needed.
1. I think it is common ground that we all believe the two or more small appliance circuits are dedicated circuits.
There is a fundamental disagreement to what these circuits are dedicated to.
a. the kitchen, Dinning, breakfast, and like rooms.
b. The required rec. outlets in the Dinning, breakfast, and like rooms
Exception No. 1: A receptacle installed solely for the electrical supply to and support of an electric clock in any of the rooms specified in 210.52(B)(1).
Exception No. 2: Receptacles installed to provide power for supplemental equipment and lighting on gas-fired ranges, ovens, or counter-mounted cooking units.
Why are they there, what do they mean, and what information can they give us in understanding this section?
Lets walk your self through a living room to understand the reason for exception one in the kitchen.
I enter the living room through a door. (broken liner wall line) I turn left and start walking the unbroken liner wall line. At six ft I see a rec. on the wall mounted 24? off the floor all is good I walk another 12 ft until I encounter another rec. this rec. happens to be mounted 72? of the floor. That one is not one of the required rec I need one lower within 51/2 feet.
They exact same thing now it?s the dinning and the two rec plus the one I am adding are on a small appliance rec. cercuit. I now have one additional consideration can the clock rec be on a small appliance dedicated circuit. We all agree that it can be. But what did exception 1 mean? more importantly why did we need it.
Look at exception two why did we need it. The gas fired range is in the kitchen. The rec is on the wall, The range is an appliance, oh, wait a minuet the range is not a small appliance and the circuit is dedicated to the required rec. outlets supplying small appliances.
To you that might sound nit picky, the exception is there for a reason.
Look at the clock rec. outlet and exception 1. you can?t ignore it you have to take a position on why it is required before you can take a position on this whole section.
None of us believe it is there because its above the 5 ? ft and your not allowed any rec. out lets in that space in any or all of the rooms in a dwelling.
If your position is that the small appliance circuit is dedicated to the kitchen, dinning rm. ect. and incorporates all 110 volt 15 and 20 amp rec. mounted on the wall there is no need for the exception
If you position is that the small appliance circuit is dedicated to the 110 volt 15 and 20 amp required rec. outlets in the kitchen, dinning rm, ect. There is a need for the exception. That clock rec at 6 ft mounted on the wall is excluded as one of the required rec. and now you need an exception to extend the small appliance circuit.
Have fun guys all I ask is you consider this concept. Take a position on why the clock exception was needed.
- Location
- Massachusetts
The clock exception was not required it simply grants permission to add a clock receptacle onto the SABC.
I could just as easily supply the clock with a dedicated 15 amp circuit assuming the clock is up high on the wall.
(2) No Other Outlets. The two or more small-appliance branch circuits specified in 210.52(B)(1) shall have no other outlets.
because of this wording i just can't see that the 5 1/2 rule applies. no other, to me means just that. that has been my understanding and of course i could be wrong and the 5 1/2 rule trumps the "no other".
because of this wording i just can't see that the 5 1/2 rule applies. no other, to me means just that. that has been my understanding and of course i could be wrong and the 5 1/2 rule trumps the "no other".
Pierre C Belarge
Senior Member
- Location
- Westchester County, New York
The small appliance supplied receptacles/branch circuits are not permitted to have other outlets -notice outlets and not just receptacles.
With that said, the wording (it may not be intentional), does not support the fact that all receptacles in a kitchen are required to be supplied by a 20 ampere rated branch circuit.
Just the small appliance branch circuit/receptacles (where they are required), are required to be rated at 20 amperes.
If what you are saying, then the receptacles under the sink which may supply low-voltage lighting or a dishwasher or disposal would also be required to be 20 amperes - which they may not be depending on the load served.
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