branch entering other building

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GSXR600

Senior Member
I have a sub panel im installing in a garage it is only 6 spaces this doesnt require a main breaker. Right?

Also i have three way traveler going from the house to the garage so the home owner can shut off the lighting in the garage from house how would these conductor relate to NEC article 225.32 would the travelers require a disconnect before entering the house?
 
G

GSXR600

Senior Member
well i agree but if there was a fire the fire department would enter the house killing the main and the same scenario in the garage thus not having any live wires on either side.
 
Nium

Nium

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Location
Bethlehem, PA
225.38 Exception

225.38 Exception

It would seem that for the 3-way it is allowed by...

225.38 Disconnect Construction
Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential property, snap switches or sets of 3-way or 4-way snap switches shall be permitted as a disconnecting means.

No?
 
T

TT009

Member
Nium said:
It would seem that for the 3-way it is allowed by...

225.38 Disconnect Construction
Exception: For garages and outbuildings on residential property, snap switches or sets of 3-way or 4-way snap switches shall be permitted as a disconnecting means.

No?
Click to expand...

I would agree with you. You could also argue 225.32 because you are feeding it from the garage CB, along with feeding it from the main service in the house.
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
IMO there are a couple different things going on here.

1. the service to the building(s).
2. switch legs for the garage lighting.

I think:

225.34 (A) permits the use of the six breakers as the disconnect of the feeder to the garage in this case. The exception allowed in 225.36 is applicable when you only have one branch circuit ( not feeder ( last OCPD) ) going to the garage.

I think since the sub feed to the garage is fed from the house, the house is already disconnected by it's service, because It will kill the garage light switch legs to the house.

If the garage was fed by a different service from the house, I don't know what to think. The exceptions seem to consider the branch circuit from the perspective of the out building, not the house.

Seems like most times the electricity from the 3 way would not extend beyond the one box in the house, but who's to say where the box is located. The circuit might go throughout the house or it might be 4 ways going to several locations :confused:
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
raider1 said:
Actually 225.30(D) specifically permits an additional branch circuit for control of outside lights from multiple locations.

Chris
Click to expand...

I believe that allows more than one supply to a building, but does that negate or modify the need for a disconnecting means specified in 225.31?

I think there are specific exceptions dealing with disconnects of branch circuits fed TO a garage or outbuilding ( 225.36 and 225 .38 ) FROM a house, but what deals with a branch circuit or switch leg fed FROM a garage or outbuilding TO a house?

Maybe it's silly hair splitting, but it sure seems like they're talking about FROM a house to a garage or outbuilding, not TO a house from a garage or an outbuilding.

I think in the case of the OP, the house's service also disconnects the garage, which disconnects the switch leg, but what if the garage is NOT fed from the house? Does the light circuit need a disconnect at the house? Does the exception allowed in 225.38 apply to the house, or just garages and outbuildings?:confused:

Don't make me have to argue with myself.
 
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RICK NAPIER

Senior Member
Location
New Jersey
Since the garage is fed from the house and the three way feeds from the garage I think all is code compliant. Now if the three ways fed from the house then you would be over six disconnects at the garage and would need to Identify the feeder disconnects per 230.2(E).
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
raider1 said:
Actually 225.30(D) specifically permits an additional branch circuit for control of outside lights from multiple locations.
Click to expand...
These aren't "outside lights." They are inside another building (i.e., the garage).

As I understand this installation, if you go to the panel inside the garage, and turn off no more than 6 breakers, you will have deenergized all circuits inside the garage. That is code compliant, I do believe.

Now, just out of curiosity, how are you handling the equipment grounding conductors and the grounding electrode(s) for the garage?
 
Dennis Alwon

Dennis Alwon

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charlie b said:
These aren't "outside lights." They are inside another building (i.e., the garage).
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Charlie, I don't believe the fact that the lights are in the garage or outside really makes a difference. I think the statement uses the words "such as" to give an idea of why someone would have a 3 way between structures.

I think a 3 way in the main house is perfectly legit in this install.
 
R

realolman

Senior Member
Dennis Alwon said:
Charlie, I don't believe the fact that the lights are in the garage or outside really makes a difference. I think the statement uses the words "such as" to give an idea of why someone would have a 3 way between structures.

I think a 3 way in the main house is perfectly legit in this install.
Click to expand...

I agree.... my question is in regards to the exact same lighting setup in the garage, if the garage has a seperate service from the house.

Is the same three way good enough as a disconnect at the house, or does it need something else, and if so ... what?

And for goodness sake don't throw the ground rods and stuff in yet!:)
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
Dennis Alwon said:
Charlie, I don't believe the fact that the lights are in the garage or outside really makes a difference.
Click to expand...
I do.
Dennis Alwon said:
I think the statement uses the words "such as" to give an idea of why someone would have a 3 way between structures.
Click to expand...
The phrase "such as" refers back to the earlier phrase, ". . . for different uses . . . ." The notion of a 3-way controlling outside lights is one example of a "use" that is different than power and lights inside the building.
Dennis Alwon said:
I think a 3 way in the main house is perfectly legit in this install.
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I do too. But only because power to the lights comes from one of the breakers inside the garage. If you bring a circuit from the main panel to a panel in the garage, and then use a different circuit from the main panel to a 3-way control scheme for lights in the garage, I think you will have violated 225.30. Specifically, I think this would not come under 225.30(D). Receptacles in the garage, powered from the garage panel, and lights in the garage, powered from the main panel in the house, are not "different uses," in the context of 225.30(D). But receptacles in the garage and lights that illuminate the lawn and garden between the house and the garage are "different uses."
 
charlie b

charlie b

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Lockport, IL
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Retired Electrical Engineer
realolman said:
Is the same three way good enough as a disconnect at the house, or does it need something else, and if so ... what?
Click to expand...
A three way will not function as a disconnecting means. If you turn off the lights using the 3-way switch inside the house, you can turn the lights back on, using the 3-way switch inside the garage. The house switch does not remove all sources of power. But if the power to the lights comes from a breaker in the garage panel, then a fire fighter can turn off all power to the garage loads, including the lights, by throwing the six (or fewer) breakers in that garage panel.

realolman said:
And for goodness sake don't throw the ground rods and stuff in yet!:)
Click to expand...
OK. I'll take a rain check on that one. :grin:

 
R

realolman

Senior Member
charlie b said:
A three way will not function as a disconnecting means. If you turn off the lights using the 3-way switch inside the house, you can turn the lights back on, using the 3-way switch inside the garage. The house switch does not remove all sources of power. ....
Click to expand...


I agree, but 225.38 and 225.36 specifically allows 3 and 4 ways as disconnects FOR garages and outbuildings....why?... I dunno. I don't make the news , I just report it now .... how about for a lighting circuit originating outside the house and going into the house and in no way fed from the house?

Need a disconnect? what kind? 3 or 4 way OK?
 
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