Device listing conflict

[nhfire77]

I am uncomfortable with a residential fire/security I am about to take over.

Currently there is a Napco Gemini P1632 installed with system sensor 2W-ATB installed on the two wire smoke loop.

Napco states their panel is compatible with that model. System Sensor does not. It is not a listed as a compatible device on System Sensors side.

I feel that is good enough reason to not use them together, also the power draw would probably be more than what the circuit is rated for.

It's installed and supposedly working(I did not yet test them, the owner is closing on the house today) but I don't like messing around with UL issues with fire devices.

To make matters worse, there are no other smoke alarms.

I have submitted a proposal to swap out the smokes in question and add wireless interconnected smokes. This is an existing construction that just had $500,000 worth of work, so cutting holes to add anything is out of the question.

What are your thoughts????????

 

[LJSMITH1]

I feel that the Napco stating it's compatibility with the System Sensor is more important than the other way around. The UL listing indicates that Napco has paid to have its panel specifically tested with the System Sensor device. System Sensor may have not elected to do the same thing with Napco or other brands of panels.

Since the panel is supplying the power and communications capability, I would feel that their listing is the most important factor.

If you want extra reassurance, then call System Sensor and ask them if they feel the installation presents any issue.

IMHO, based on your info, I would leave the System Sensors in place.

 

[ron]

The text from NFPA 72-2007 is

4.4.2 Compatibility.​

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All detection devices that receive their power from the initiating device circuit or signaling line circuit of a control unit shall be listed for use with the control unit.​

It is unclear whether the panel gets listed with the detector or the detector with the panel.
Most of the time, I see the panel manufacturer paying for the listing, so it may be okay that System sensor doesn't know about the cross listing.
If you decide to replace the detectors, and the wiring is already there for the system sensor devices, just replace them with properly listed wired devices. The wireless is a headache down the road for battery replacement.​

 

[iwire]

I feel that the Napco stating it's compatibility with the System Sensor is more important than the other way around. The UL listing indicates that Napco has paid to have its panel specifically tested with the System Sensor device. System Sensor may have not elected to do the same thing with Napco or other brands of panels.

Since the panel is supplying the power and communications capability, I would feel that their listing is the most important factor.

If you want extra reassurance, then call System Sensor and ask them if they feel the installation presents any issue.

IMHO, based on your info, I would leave the System Sensors in place.

Thanks, I am laughing out loud, again you have no problem going with just opinion and not the listing when the opinion is your's but God forbid a lowly electrician makes a judgment call.:grin:

 

[ultramegabob]

This is an existing construction that just had $500,000 worth of work, so cutting holes to add anything is out of the question.

What are your thoughts????????

I just love when people work backwards, wanting to spend all thier money on painting and fancy trim and wallpaper, then when they are finished, they call the electrician in to re-wire the building.....

 

[nhfire77]

Thanks, I am laughing out loud, again you have no problem going with just opinion and not the listing when the opinion is your's but God forbid a lowly electrician makes a judgment call.:grin:

Bob I am a little slow do you agree they should be replaced?

 

[LJSMITH1]

Thanks, I am laughing out loud, again you have no problem going with just opinion and not the listing when the opinion is your's but God forbid a lowly electrician makes a judgment call.:grin:

Ok...Then replace them! But, then again, if it were my job, I would CALL the System Sensor folks and see what they say first.

Maybe some professionals couldn't be bothered with all that effort just to find out, when it would be supposedly easier to just replace these things. Maybe System Sensor is listed for Napco panels, but their documentation hasn't been updated? How would you know, unless you called the Manufacturer?


FYI...If the Napco system was NOT listed for use with the System Sensor, then I would not use them together. The fact that one of the two components *IS* already UL listed for use with the other, cannot be ignored. The real question is does System Sensor agree, and will they obtain a UL listing in the future to be 'officially' compatible with a Napco panel?

BTW...I am not contradicting my past positions on this subject, nor am I second guessing a licensed electrician's opinion on this subject. The OP asked for thoughts and I provided them.

Lighten Up! Its all good!

 

[nhfire77]

Update

Update

I spoke with my distributor that carries both products. It is an issue that has not resolved itself.

System sensor sent them a letter, dated 9/09, that the 2W-ATB is not compatible with ANY burg panels, only commercial fire panels. This is due to the current draw being too high. They have a device , 2WMOD2, that allows you to add an auxiliary power supply to intergrate them. They stated this is not some marketing ploy to sell more equipment, just that the power on those panels are not there.

The distributor called, but not in writing, Napco. They officially stated they will work when you follow their instructions. They unofficially mentioned it could be a problem.


I am going to swap them out becuase I will be adding wireless interconnected combo smoke/ CO alarms. I feel if they were both sounding it may cause a problem. This way there will only be one sound.

I appreciate any futher input anyone may have.

 

[TLBryant]

First let me say that I spec and use system sensor fire alarm devices above other brands. That being said I have found some mistakes in their device compatibility charts.

I was checking the compatibility of 2WB with a Pyro System 3 CP-35 and found listing that showed the 2WB was compatible with the CP-35's using Notifier monitor modules. I VERY sure that is a mistake.

Best thing to do is call. If they can't give you a good answer...when in doubt swap it out.

 

[KyawaComm]

So this customer just spent $500k on improvements and you're agonizing over a smoke detector? You can buy the SS 2WT-B for around $35. They are compatible. Just put one of those in and rest easy.

http://www.systemsensor.com/html/cd.html?page=2-wire&co=Napco&panel=GEM - P1632

 

[nhfire77]

So this customer just spent $500k on improvements and you're agonizing over a smoke detector? You can buy the SS 2WT-B for around $35. They are compatible. Just put one of those in and rest easy.

http://www.systemsensor.com/html/cd.html?page=2-wire&co=Napco&panel=GEM - P1632

Its not one its 10 2W-B's Which is 10*$35= $350+mark up and labor=$700.

But you are right.

I just got what was supposed to be the 2nd payment (progress payment) and the client didn't want to be bothered with writing another (final) check. So, now that we are waiting for another contractor to finish before we can, we've been paid in full!!

(Unlike some hacks, I don't need motivation to finish it!!)

I want more of these customers. The smart and wealthy, not the cheap and wealthy!!!

 

[KyawaComm]

Nice job. That was the way to go and all things considered, $700 isn't that much money, especially for 10 devices installed.

 

[Security101]

So this customer just spent $500k on improvements and you're agonizing over a smoke detector? You can buy the SS 2WT-B for around $35. They are compatible. Just put one of those in and rest easy.

http://www.systemsensor.com/html/cd.html?page=2-wire&co=Napco&panel=GEM - P1632

Only one problem with the 2wt-b's, if they are the only smokes the home has (as described in the OP) then they would need to each be audible during an alarm (unless his AHJ would allow other sounder(s)) which is rare in a residence.

And that's part of the conundrum... (and why NH is "agonizing" as you put it )

Jim

 

[nhfire77]

Only one problem with the 2wt-b's, if they are the only smokes the home has (as described in the OP) then they would need to each be audible during an alarm (unless his AHJ would allow other sounder(s)) which is rare in a residence.

And that's part of the conundrum... (and why NH is "agonizing" as you put it )

Jim

Yea that was part of the install, remove the sounder 2W-BTA and replace them with 2W-B's. Then add wirelessly interconnected smokes. LV only smokes was the original set up and is problematic, people are not used to that and if the security system is unplugged, you would have no smoke coverage. I like the idea that the wireless interconnected smoke will last for days on a low
battery.

My opinion.