Guys been a while since I been on but I am concerned about ARC FAULT protection. Where does it say that you have to include luminares in protection. And where does it explain that if the circuit has GFCI protection ( Bathroom and Kitchen ) than you dont have to include it in the Arc Fault circuit. How many of us protect Kitchen lighting with GFCI as well as bathroom lighting with a few exceptions ? In other words why would we have to include luminare protection in some rooms and not other rooms ? I personally think that this is a mistake by the powers that be and just quickly excepted by electrical inspectors to pass on to us. You did not have to protect lighting in 2005 on arc fault. An OUTLET is a device to take current from, a LIGHTING OUTLET is for Luminares they are not the same in DEFINITIONS. Any help with this much appreciated
2005 -2008 arc fault difference ?
- Thread starter wrestless
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
The code is clear but I cannot tell you why it is the way it is. Art. 210.12 should answer it all but as you can see the kitchen and bathrooms were left out. It does not say kitchen and bathroom recep. It simply omits those rooms-- that insludes the lights.
Many people are under the impression if it is GFCI protected then no AFCI is required. That is not the case but with recep. it may be a general accepted rule of thumb but it is not all inclusive.
Many people are under the impression if it is GFCI protected then no AFCI is required. That is not the case but with recep. it may be a general accepted rule of thumb but it is not all inclusive.
ceb58
Senior Member
- Location
- Raeford, NC
I think because of the requried spaces listed in 210.12 B that afci is requried and because bathrooms, kitchens and garages were not on the list but these areas do require gfic outlet protection that it has become a rule of thumb for people to keep up with where it is requried and not requried. The only space that I see not listed for afci and not requiring gfci protection would be for the laundry area ( unless there was a sink at the right location).
As far as lighting I agree that if the circs. were laid out properly with no outlets then you would not need afci protection.
Dennis I think it is because the new Arc Fault are combination so maybe it falls into a GFCI catagory. But it still does not say anywhere where lighting has to be protected I was always under the assumption that the reason arc fault was basically invented was to eliminate arcing of any type of electrical cords on lamps , heaters and the like. I dont know I just know that the more I learn the more I dont understand how the code is written. Seems like we all have to be lawyers and try to pick apart what is meant by certain vernacular.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
An outlet is an outlet or a point in which current is taken to supply util. equip. This includes lighting outlets so they are one and the same.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Do not confuse the combo arc fault as meaning GFCI and AFCI. That is not what a combo AFCI is. A combo AFCI protects against parallel as well as series ground faults.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
In reference to my post above about the combo arc faults and arc faults specifically you may want to read these articles
EC&M
Inspectapedia
EC&M
Inspectapedia
Dont mean to disagree with you on this one but I certainly have to lets see what happens in
in future Code editions. I mean this could go on forever why isnt the lighting in laundry area or garage included as well as outside lighting. Im going to see if i can get to someone in CODE PANEL # 2 and see if they have any answers. I did this in the past and you would not believe how many people Electricians as well as Inspectors who misinterpeted the true meaning of the article. Thanks for all the info
Receptacle OUTLET, Lighting OUTLET. Keyword = outlet. In addition, you have to remember one of the reasons used in arc-fault substantiation is the protection of the branch circuit wiring itself and not just the outlets and utilization equipment using those outlets.
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
If you are disagreeing on the use of the word outlet not being in reference to lighting outlets then I am afraid you will be disappointed. I would be very surprised if anyone on the cmp didn't consider a lighting outlet an outlet.
kwired
Electron manager
- Location
- NE Nebraska
I have to agree with this.
The difference between GFCI protection and AFCI protection, and the reason GFCI protection is not required on (most) lighting outlets is that GFCI's are meant for protection of personnel at the point of utilization. AFCI's are for protection of the circuit wiring from the point of origin all the way to the point of utilization. This is also the reason for the lack of AFCI devices, you need AFCI protection from the breaker out to the entire circuit.
Cold Fusion
Senior Member
- Location
- way north
Disclaimer: I don't do residential.
I don't see how an AFCI protects the wiring. By the time an AFCI trips on AF the wiring is bad/defective - that's why it's arcing.
The afci protects the structure and occupants from the fire that the arcing would eventually start.
cf
Right, that's what I meant
, good catch.Either way, still the same concept. AFCI's are for the entire circuit, regardless of outlets.
FWIW, I don't do residential either.
Steviechia2
Senior Member
- Location
- Massachusetts
I took the 15 hour mandatory code update with one of the persons who was on the panel. I believe he said the reason they kept these rooms ( kitchen, bath, etc.)off the list is because these breakers at the time of making the code still have not been perfected. I think that this was a good call. I have experienced many nuisance tripping mostly from motors and luminaires. I would hate to see this code move to the kitchen and to see a frig on an AFCI
cadpoint
Senior Member
- Location
- Durham, NC
Well let's work on the name of the Receptacle that will end up being called Raw Power... Gezz people will be scared!
- Location
- Chapel Hill, NC
- Occupation
- Retired Electrical Contractor
Thank you..- Status