Feeders for multiple HVAC units

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augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I have a job where the HVAC contractor has installed (3) heat pumps on a 200 amp panel. The MCA on each unit is 78 amps.
From 440.33 & 440.35 it appears to current is simply the sum of these branch circuit selection currents (even though this is a feeder and 440.33 is for branch circuits).
Is that the proper procedure for sizing a feeder ?
(I ask since if it was motors we would use Art 430, we would go back to the individual loads as selected from the tables)
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
You lost me must be way over my head or the way you are asking it is confusing me(not to hard to do that).
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
The FLA is 62 amps per unit. I think you would have to assume that all units would be running at the same time which is 182 amps. Adding the 1.25 factor the load is 235 amps. I this what you were asking?
 

jwjrw

Senior Member
The FLA is 62 amps per unit. I think you would have to assume that all units would be running at the same time which is 182 amps. Adding the 1.25 factor the load is 235 amps. I this what you were asking?

Where did you get the fla amps from?
 

augie47

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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
different approach....
if we were sizing a feeder for motors, we would use the FLA in the Tables (430.250, etc) for our numbers (125% largest + sum of others).
When sizing the Breakers for motors our calculations are based on the Tables.

From reading 440. it appears we use the sum of the branch circuit selection current (if thats highest) rather than the RLA of the individual motors.

So in my situation the calculations are based on the branch circuit selection currents rather than the RLA.
 

marti smith

Senior Member
Ah, this will be a great learning experience as I have much to learn. How may disconnects will you have? WIll they all be on one or is this a 200 amp panel with individual ocpd's? (440.12)

I'm looking at 220.40, then to Art. 440: 440.6, 440.22 etc...ended up at 440.33, then referred back to II. The instructor doesn't ask questions lest to test his students!:D
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
different approach....
if we were sizing a feeder for motors, we would use the FLA in the Tables (430.250, etc) for our numbers (125% largest + sum of others).
When sizing the Breakers for motors our calculations are based on the Tables.

From reading 440. it appears we use the sum of the branch circuit selection current (if thats highest) rather than the RLA of the individual motors.

So in my situation the calculations are based on the branch circuit selection currents rather than the RLA.

Thats probably the way to do it. 62 x 1.25 + 62 + 62 = 201.5
Augie, What size breaker did he use?
 

augie47

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Tennessee
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State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
200 amp panel... (6) 50 amp branches (HVAC contractor elected to separate heat & comp)

my problem is that the sections of 440 (such as 440.22(B)(1) ) say largest compressor plus sum OR branch circuit selection current whichever is greater which leads me to think I have to use the 78 amps from each.
 
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Hameedulla-Ekhlas

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AFG
Dear Friend,
please follow the below examples and hope to help u.


Example No. 1: Suppose you use a dual-element fuse for overload protection. What size fuse do you need for a 5-hp, 230V, single-phase motor with a service factor of 1.16 if the motor nameplate current rating is 28A?

(a) 25A
(c) 35A
(b) 30A
(d) 40A

The overload protection shall be sized according to the motor nameplate current rating [430.6(A), 430.32(A)(1), and 430.55].

You also have to consider another factor: nameplate temperature rise. For motors with a nameplate temperature rise rating not over 40?C, size the overload protection device no more than 125% of the motor nameplate current rating. Thus, 28A?1.25=35A [240.6(A)]

Example No. 2: Again, suppose you're using a dual-element fuse for the overload protection. What size fuse do you need for a 50-hp, 460V, 3-phase motor that has a temperature rise of 39?C and motor nameplate current rating of 60A (FLA)?

(a) 40A
(c) 60A
(b) 50A
(d) 70A

The overload protection is sized per the motor nameplate current rating, not the motor full load current (FLC) rating. Thus, 60A?1.25=75A. Overload protection shall not exceed 75A, so you need to use a 70A dual-element fuse [240.6(A) and 430.32(A)(1)].

Motors that don't have a service factor rating of 1.15 or higher or a temperature rise rating of 40?C and less must have an overload protection device sized at not more than 115% of the motor nameplate ampere rating (430.37).

Sizing branch-circuit conductors. Branch-circuit conductors that serve a single motor must have an ampacity of not less than 125% of the motor's FLC as listed in Tables 430.147 through 430.150 [430.6(A)]. You must select the conductor size from Table 310.16 according to the terminal temperature rating (60?C or 75?C) of the equipment [110.14(C)]. Let's reinforce this concept by working through a sample calculation


Example No. 3: What size THHN conductor do you need for a 2-hp, 230V, single-phase motor?

(a) 14 AWG
(c) 10 AWG
(b) 12 AWG
(d) 8 AWG

Let's walk through the solution:

Step 1: Conductor sized no less than 125% of motor FLC

Step 2: Table 430.148 shows the FLC of 2-hp, 230V, single-phase as 12A

Step 3: 12A ? 1.25 = 15A

Step 4: Per Table 310.16, you need to use 14 AWG THHN rated 20A at 60?C

The minimum size conductor the NEC permits for building wiring is 14 AWG [310.5]. However, local codes and many industrial facilities have requirements that 12 AWG be used as the smallest branch-circuit wire. So in this example you might need to use 12 AWG instead of 14 AWG


Branch-circuit protection for short-circuits and ground-faults. Branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protection devices protect the motor, motor control apparatus, and conductors against short circuits or ground faults. They don't protect against an overload (430.51)

The short-circuit and ground-fault protection device required for motor circuits isn't the type required for personnel (210.8), feeders (215.9 and 240.13), services (230.95), or temporary wiring for receptacles (527.6).

Per 430.52(C), you must size the short-circuit and ground-fault protection for the motor branch circuit ? except those that serve torque motors ? so they're no greater than the percentages listed in Table 430.52.

When the short-circuit and ground-fault protection device value that you find in Table 430.52 doesn't correspond to the standard rating or setting of overcurrent protection devices as listed in 240.6(A), use the next higher protection device size [430.52(C)(1) Ex. 1].

Did that statement stop you? Does it strike you as incorrect? That's a common response, but remember, motors are different than other system components. Motor overload protection devices, such as heaters and fuses, protect the motor and other items from overload. The short-circuit and ground-fault protection doesn't need to perform this function. Therefore, oversizing won't compromise protection. Undersizing will prevent the motor from starting.

Use the following two-step process to determine what percentage from Table 430.52 you should use to size the motor branch-circuit short-circuit ground-fault protection device.

Step 1: Locate the motor type on Table 430.52.

Step 2: Select the percentage from Table 430.52 according to the type of protection device, such as non-time delay (one-time), dual-element fuse, or inverse-time circuit breaker. Don't forget to use the next higher protection device size when necessary.

Let's see if you have this concept down with a short quiz. Of the following statements, which one is true? Use Table 430.52 to look up the numbers.


1.The branch-circuit short-circuit protection (non-time delay fuse) for a 3-hp, 115V, single-phase motor shall not exceed 110A.

2.The branch-circuit short-circuit protection (dual-element fuse) for a 5-hp, 230V, single-phase motor shall not exceed 50A.

3.The branch-circuit short-circuit protection (inverse-time breaker) for a 25-hp, 460V, 3-phase synchronous motor shall not exceed 70A.


Let's address each question individually. We'll be referring to 430.53(C)(1) Ex. 1 and Table 430.52.


1.Per Table 430.148, 34A?3.00=102A. The next size up is 110A. So this is true.

2.Per Table 430.148, 28A?1.75=49A. The next size up is 50A. So, this is also true.

3.Per Table 430.150, 26A?2.50=65A. The next size up is 70A. This is also true.


Remember the following important principles:


?You must size the conductors at 125% of the motor FLC [430.22(A)].

?You must size the overloads no more than 115% to 125% of the motor nameplate current rating, depending on the conditions [430.32(A)(1)].

?You must size the short-circuit ground-fault protection device from 150% to 300% of the motor FLC [Table 430.52].


If you put all three of these together, you can see the branch-circuit conductor ampacity (125%) and the short-circuit ground-fault protection device (150% to 300%) aren't related.

This final example should help you see if you've been paying attention


Example No. 4: Are any of the following statements true for a 1-hp, 120V motor, nameplate current rating of 14A? Refer to Fig. 6.

(a) The branch-circuit conductors can be 14 AWG THHN.

(b) Overload protection is from 16.1A.

(c) Short-circuit and ground-fault protection is permitted to be a 40A circuit breaker.

(d) All of these are true.

Walking through each of these, you can see:

(a) The conductors are sized per 430.22(A): 16A?1.25=20A; Table 310.16 requires 14 AWG at 60?C.

(b) Per 430.32(A)(1), overload protection is sized as follows: 14A (nameplate)?1.15=16.1A.

(c) Short-circuit and ground-fault protection is determined based on 430.52(C)(1): 16A?2.50=40A circuit breaker.

Therefore all three statements are true.

The 16A overload protection device protects the 14 AWG conductors from overcurrent, while the 40A short-circuit protection device protects them from short circuits. This example illustrates the sometimes confusing fact that when you're doing motor calculations, you're actually calculating overcurrent and short-circuit protection separately.


Branch-circuit conductors and protection devices. Per 430.6(A), branch-circuit conductors to a single motor must have an ampacity of not less than 125% of the motor full load current (FLC) as listed in Tables 430.147 through 430.150. To illustrate this, let's size the branch-circuit conductors (THHN) and short-circuit ground-fault protection device for a 3-hp, 115V, single-phase motor. The motor FLA is 31A, and dual-element fuses for short-circuit and ground-fault protection are in use


?Per Table 430.148, the FLC current is 34A.

?34A?125%=43A.

?Per Table 310.16 (60?C terminals [110.14(C)(1)(a)]), the conductor must be a 6 AWG THHN rated 55A.

It continues please follow the part-2



best regards,
Hameedullah Ekhlas
Electrical Engineer
Kabul Afghanistan
 

Hameedulla-Ekhlas

Senior Member
Location
AFG
Part-2


Fig. 1. Don?t make the mistake of using a motor?s FLA nameplate rating when using the short-circuit and ground-fault protection devices. You must use the FLC rating given in Table 430.148.
Per the motor FLC listed in Table 430.52, size the branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protection devices by using multiplication factors based on the type of motor and protection device. When the protection device values determined from Table 430.52 don't correspond with the standard rating of overcurrent protection devices listed in 240.6(A), you must use the next higher overcurrent protection device. To illustrate this, let's use the same motor as in the previous example.


?Per 240.6(A), multiply 34A?175%
?You need a 60A dual-element fuse.

To explore this example further, see Example No. D8 in Annex D of the 2002 NEC. Once you've sized the motor overloads, branch-circuit conductors, and branch-circuit protective devices, you're ready to move on to the next step.

Motor feeder conductor calculations. From 430.24, you can see that conductors that supply several motors must have an ampacity not less than:


?125% of the highest-rated motor FLC [430.17], plus

?The sum of the FLCs of the other motors (on the same phase), as determined by 430.6(A), plus

?The ampacity required to supply the other loads on that feeder.



Motor feeder conductors shall be sized not less than 125% of the largest motor FLC plus the sum of the FLCs of the other motors on the same phase.
Use Fig. 2 and solve the following problem.

Example No. 1. For what ampacity must you size the feeder conductor if it supplies the following two motors? The terminals are rated for 75?C.


?One 7.5-hp, 230V (40A), single-phase motor

?One 5-hp, 230V (28A), single-phase motor


(a) 50A
(b) 60A
(c) 70A
(d) 80A

Let's walk through the solution.


?The largest motor is 40A.

?40A?1.25+28A=78A.

?80A is the closest selection that's at least 78A.


What size conductor would give us this ampacity?

(a) 2 AWG
(b) 4 AWG
(c) 6 AWG
(d) 8 AWG

Per Table 310.16, a 6 AWG conductor rated at 75?C provides 65A of ampacity, so it's too small. However, a 4 AWG conductor provides 85A of ampacity, which will accommodate the necessary 78A. Therefore, you need to size this feeder conductor at 4 AWG.

Next, we have to determine what size overcurrent protection device (OCPD) we must provide for a given feeder.


Fig. 3. To size overcurrent protection devices for each feeder, start by determining the ampacities required for each motor and move on from there.
Example No. 2. Using a slightly more complex example, try sizing the feeder conductor (THHN) and protection device (inverse-time breakers, 75?C terminal rating) for the following motors


?Three 1-hp, 120V, single-phase motors
?Three 5-hp, 208V, single-phase motors
?One wound-rotor, 15-hp, 208V, 3-phase motor

Refer to 240.6(A), 430.52(C)(1), Table 430.148, and Table 430.52. Start by determining the ampacities required for each size of motor, then walk through each step until you arrive at the correct OCPD size.


?1-hp motor: FLC is 16A.
16A?250%=40A

?5-hp motor: FLC is 30.8A.
30.8A?250%=77A (Next size up is 80A.)

?15-hp motor: FLC is 46.2A.


Each motor?s FLC will come into play when sizing the conductor.
46.2A?150% (wound-rotor) 569A (Next size up is 70A.)

Now, let's look at the feeder conductor. Conductors that supply several motors must have an ampacity of not less than 125% of the highest-rated motor FLC (430.17), plus the sum of the other motor FLCs [430.6(A)] on the same phase (Fig. 4).

Continuing with this example, add up all the ampacities, multiplying the highest rated motor by 125%. Thus:


?(46.2A?1.25)+30.8A+30.8A+16A=136A.


Table 310.16 shows you need 1/0 AWG THHN because at 150A it's the smallest conductor that accommodates the 136A of ampacity we're working with. When sizing the feeder conductor, be sure to include only the motors that are on the same phase. For that reason, these calculations only involve four motors.

You must provide the feeder with a protective device with a rating or setting not greater than the largest rating or setting of the branch-circuit short-circuit and ground-fault protective device (plus the sum of the full-load currents of the other motors of the group) [430.62(A)]. Remember, motor feeder conductors must be protected against the overcurrent that results from short circuits and ground faults but not those that result from motor overload.

When sizing the feeder protection, be sure to include only the motors that are on the same phase.


In this example, the largest branch-circuit fuse or circuit breaker allowed for Motor 1 is 70A.
Refer to Fig. 5 for this sample motor feeder protection calculation.

Example No. 3. What size feeder protection (inverse-time breaker) do you need for the following two motors?


?5-hp, 230V, single-phase motor
?3-hp, 230V, single-phase motor

(a) 30A breaker
(b) 40A breaker
(c) 50A breaker
(d) 80A breaker

Let's walk through the solution.

Step 1: Get the motor FLC from Table 430.148.


?A 5-hp motor FLC is 28A.
?A 3-hp motor FLC is 17A.

Step 2: Size the branch-circuit protection per the requirements of 430.52(C)(1), Table 430.52, and 240.6(A)


?5-hp: 28A?2.5=70A

?3-hp: 17A?2.5=42.5A (Next size up is 45A.)


Step 3: Size the feeder conductor per 430.24(A).


?The largest motor is 28A.

?(28A?1.25)+17A=52A

?Table 310.16 shows 6 AWG rated 55A at 60?C as the smallest conductor with sufficient ampacity.


Step 4: Size the feeder protection per 430.62.


?It must not be greater than the 70A protection of the branch circuit plus the 17A of the other motor, which is the total of all loads on that feeder.

?70A+17A=87A


Choose the next size down, which is 80A.

How can you be safe if you're selecting the next size down instead of the next size up? Remember, you've already accounted for all the loads, and the NEC requires that you not exceed the protection of the branch circuit. Again, keep in mind that you aren't calculating for motor overload protection. Motor calculations are different from other calculations. With motor feeders, you're calculating for protection from short circuits and ground faults, only ? not overload.

Putting it all together. Motor calculations get confusing if you forget there's a division of responsibility in the protective devices. To get your calculations right, you must separately calculate the motor overload protection (typically near the motor), branch-circuit protection (from short circuits and ground faults), and feeder-circuit protection (from short circuits and ground faults). Remember that overload protection is only at the motor.

Any time you find yourself confused, just refer to NEC Figure 430.1. It shows the division of responsibility between different forms of protection in motor circuits. Example D8 in Annex D of the 2002 NEC illustrates this with actual numbers. Keeping this division of responsibility in mind will allow you to make correct motor calculations every time.


best regards,
Hameedullah Ekhlas
Electrical Engineer
Kabul Afghanistan
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
Lot of work there Hameedullah. Unfortunately your first example uses the nameplate. When dealing with motors you must use the tables in art. 430. Specifically in example 1 you would use T. 430.248

I am sorry but I am not sure what this has to do with the op's question. Lots of info but how does it answers Gus' question.
 

augie47

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Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
H-E.. lots of info..looks like a copy-paste job, but it's all Art 430 with which I amp familiar. Art 430 uses Tables for amperage, Art 400 has Mfg. Min Ckt amps.

Dennis,
I tend to think your approach is correct, but Art 400 keeps referning to using the "largest" of 1.25 of RLA or barch circuit selection amps and so far I'vbe found no Code justification to using the RLA.
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
200 amp panel... (6) 50 amp branches (HVAC contractor elected to separate heat & comp)

my problem is that the sections of 440 (such as 440.22(B)(1) ) say largest compressor plus sum OR branch circuit selection current whichever is greater which leads me to think I have to use the 78 amps from each.

I read it 10 times and it appears to require the 78 amps but I do not understand why. If you look at 440.32 it says the same thing but that is correct since it is only one compressor. If the MCA is 78 amps why is he installing a 50 amp breaker. If the feeder to the 200 amp panel 200 amps?
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
Occupation
State Electrical Inspector (Retired)
I read it 10 times and it appears to require the 78 amps but I do not understand why. If you look at 440.32 it says the same thing but that is correct since it is only one compressor. If the MCA is 78 amps why is he installing a 50 amp breaker. If the feeder to the 200 amp panel 200 amps?

They actually split the heat (10kw) out from the compressor. The 78 was the single circuit rating.
As I recall the no-heat (compressor) MCA is around 40. I did not note the compressor RLA.
All 3 units are being fed from a service 200 amp loadcenter.
They are in trouble no matter what numbers I use but the E/C is a PIA and I wanted to male sure my case is solid.
 
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