Siemens Arc Fault Tripping Question

[R33vinnie]

Hey guys

I'm new to the forums. I would appreciate any help with this problem. I installed one 15 amp Siemens Arc Fault overcurrent protection for a single branch circuit to feed 7 recessed lights with 65 watt bulbs. I also install one 220 volt dedicated 20 amp branch circuit for a baseboard heater with a 2 pole t-stat on unit with a normal non Arc Fault overcurrent protection. I put the lights on and the breaker holds all day, while the lights are on i turn the t-stat on from the heat and the breaker trips instantly. Could that be Harmonics? The 220 line has no neutral. It is a single phase home 120/240 coming in from the primary. The 15 amp Arc Fault overcurrent is on phase A odd side, the 220 volt non Arc is on even side of B-A. I don't really have any troubleshooting time on these breakers yet. New Jersey adopted it from the NEC to the UCC for a couple of months. Now there not using them, but i installed them in the time we were required to. Any help would be appreciative.


Thanks
Vinnie

 

[Riograndeelectric]

have yuo run the diagnostics on the breake to see if it is an over lead, arc fault or arc fault to ground condtion?
see link below


http://www.sea.siemens.com/us/inter...ction/AFCI_Combination_Instruction_Sheet_.pdf

 

[R33vinnie]

Yes i have. The breaker LED'sdo not go back on when it trips. Which tells me somethings really funky. I have replaced the breaker, i have replaced the t-stats on the heaters but it persists. I just can't understand how it would have any connection the baseboard heater. If i do not put the heater on, the lights are fine and ther breaker holds.

 

[480sparky]

Try moving the AFCI breaker to the other leg of the panel. Sometimes the simplest solution turns out to be the best.

 

[macmikeman]

One more thing, is the ark fault breaker located next to the double pole breaker for the baseboard heaters in the panel. If so try to relocate it so there are some other breakers between it and the double pole. It may come down to a heating issue in the breakers itself.

 

[ELA]

Two things you might try to better help understand what is happening:

1) Does the AFCI hold if the lights are all turned off (no load on AFCI) and the heater is then turned on via the thermostat?

2) With the AFCI lamp loads turned on as normal, but start with the heater breaker turned off. The Thermostat should be turned up so that when you now turn on the heater breaker it will call for heat. (this is an attempt to eliminate contact bounce at the thermostat). Does the AFCI then trip?

Have you confirmed that there are no neutral-ground connections downstream from the AFCI? You would normally expect the AFCI to trip right away when its lamp loads are turned on if this was the case. It may be possible that there are downstream leakage points that are marginal and only cause an issue when the heater load aggravates the situation?

 

[R33vinnie]

Thank you very much for all the help. I am going there tomorrow and i will try switching the phases. Make sure theres no neutral to ground issues. When i was there i would put the heater t-stat on with the lights off and the AFCI breaker holds fine, the unit will produce heat. I go to switch the lights on and the AFCI breaker trips, but not evertime. The AFCI breaker that controls the lights will stay on sometimes with the heater on full capacity and take maybe a couple of minutes to trip. When it trips, it persists on tripping.

 

[Riograndeelectric]

is it possible that you are some how getting a feedback on the lighting circuit form the same phase form the heaters . is the neutral from the AFCI connected to the neutral bar and not the ground bar if not the main panel?
could it also be a possible overload?

how many lights are on the circuit and what is the total wattage.

Compact fluorescent bulbs in the cans as compared to incandescent.

could be a loose connection on one of the cans.

I know I have had many issues with the Stranded wire on the cans pulling out of the ire nut or did not tighten all the way in the wire nut.
I wish the lighting manufacturer=ours would use #16 solid instead of stranded.

 

[R33vinnie]

I have seven 65 watt incandensant bulbs on the circuit with a Lutron Skylark 3 way dimmer. I have 1 end on a dimmer and 1 end on a Pass and Seymour 3 way toggle switch. I put an Amprobe on the circuit and it draws, around 3.50 amps give or take. It is in a Main Panel, grounds and neutrals are all together. I have the neutral from the AFIC breaker going to a seperate screw on the neutral bar and the ground to a seperate screw on the neutral bar. I will check all the cans, its possible one of my guys didn't make a good splice or connection.

 

[Article 90.1]

Maybe there is an actual arc fault? This is a reach, but may be worth looking at after some of the other basic troubleshooting items have been investigated, is one of the cans cutting out on thermal overload? The opening of a thermal overload in a can may be drawing enough of an arc, along with the 3.8 or so amp load of the 7 lamps to trip the breaker.

I'm curious why the diagnostic leds aren't working for you???

 

[kwired]

I have seven 65 watt incandensant bulbs on the circuit with a Lutron Skylark 3 way dimmer. I have 1 end on a dimmer and 1 end on a Pass and Seymour 3 way toggle switch. I put an Amprobe on the circuit and it draws, around 3.50 amps give or take. It is in a Main Panel, grounds and neutrals are all together. I have the neutral from the AFIC breaker going to a seperate screw on the neutral bar and the ground to a seperate screw on the neutral bar. I will check all the cans, its possible one of my guys didn't make a good splice or connection.

try seeing how it works without the dimmer, all loads involved are non linear and the load itself should not cause AFCI problems but the dimmer makes it a non linear load or at least semi non linear load.

 

[R33vinnie]

I will remove the dimmer and see if that works thank you. The reason i do not think its an arc fault is because the the lights work functional without the 220 volt heater in the mix. The lights and the heater have been installed since the summer time. Everything has worked fine until in started getting cold in the basement and they turned on the heat. I have tested the heater and there was no apparent shorts or overloads. From the Siemens checklist for the AFCI, the LED's read that the lights are properly functioning.