Engineer seal?

[kbsparky]

I am looking at some plans and specs for a new building. In these specs, they specify that the electrical contractor will prepare a design and have it sealed by an engineer registered in the State of MD.

In other words, they don't want to incur the costs of having the plans sealed by an engineer before bidding, but want the electrical contractor to include it in his bid.

I've never incurred this type of expense before, and really have no idea if I am looking at hundreds, or thousands of $$$ for such a service.

Any of you have experience with paying for an engineer to stamp/seal your design? I would think that the engineer would want to design the whole thing, and not just stamp someone else's work ....

 

[chris kennedy]

We payed $400 a stamp a while back, but this is an EE I have known for at least a decade. Don't know if he gave us a break or not.

 

[nakulak]

I would definitely get a price on that. I agree with what you said -engineers don't generally rubber stamp work by others.

 

[jim dungar]

Many if not most states have rules against an engineer stamping someone else's work that they have not been involved with.

If you wait until you are awarded the bid, what happens if the engineer finds an error in your design?

 

[hardworkingstiff]

If it's a simple building an engineer should be able to give you a price and you should know enough about how to wire it that you won't get hurt. If you are hiring the engineer, he/she will work to your bid as long as it's not a NEC violation. Not a bad place to be.

 

[benaround]

These are the same guys who get all upset when anyone but a licensed Electrician is

doing electrical work, but now want to play Engineer. I don't think it's right for an EC to

do the engineering on a new building any more than the carpenter doing the structural

design. I'm putting the blame on the GC for asking it to be done.

 

[cadpoint]

I am looking at some plans and specs for a new building. In these specs, they specify that the electrical contractor will prepare a design and have it sealed by an engineer registered in the State of MD.
...

Oh the contracting wheel of fortune seems that's where you landed.

There are many independent EE or M & E firms that would be glad to give a price to do engineered sealed drawings, as part of your bid.
Cover your specification's yes, understand what exactly your buying of the EE's service is also a must!

You could call a few of the bigger EC shops and see whom they use, locally. Ask for the chief estimator.

MO, the owner seems like their kind of on the wrong side of totally understanding anything of a good total price. This could include understanding anything about electrical things required to be met by the scope of the job, and care not to pay to understand them. Unless they have a moderate structure and a simple sum of equipment sure, go! But, if the equipment isn't accounted for in the overall bid documents, load calculations’, who fault is that? It can be expensive for the parties involved all factors considered or not. Cart before the horse oh yeah, the owner is just forgetting what's in the cart.

EE’s like EC’s aren’t out for harmful exposure and for lack of meeting legal requirements are they? I like to think, not!

I have a friend that makes a living doing it legally; I understand stamped drawings, not so much the dark conjecture!

Electricity that evil unseen necessity...Someones got to pay for it...

 

[kbsparky]

Yes, it is a design/build project.

In this case, the owner is a local municipality. The GC does not have anything to do with this requirement, it is part of the electrical specs provided by the town.

There is not any legal requirement for this, just another level of bureaucracy added in by the town person who wrote these specs.

The job is a simple building -- a type III airplane hangar. Not a whole lot of electrical in there, 6 lights and 6 outlets per space, and a static discharge grounding loop in the floor. I don't believe that there will be any hazardous location devices, since the clearances will be sufficient.

 

[jim dungar]

There is not any legal requirement for this, just another level of bureaucracy added in by the town person who wrote these specs.

The job is a simple building -- a type III airplane hangar. Not a whole lot of electrical in there, 6 lights and 6 outlets per space, and a static discharge grounding loop in the floor. I don't believe that there will be any hazardous location devices, since the clearances will be sufficient.

In my state, if this is a 'public' building an engineer's seal is required.

You say, you don't "believe" some conditions exist, are you willing to bet you career on it?

I agree that this job does not need a separate contract, from the municipality to an engineering firm for design and project management. Subcontracting, not ignoring, the engineering seems like an appropriate use of the taxpayers money.

 

[John Paul]

Yes, it is a design/build project.
...
The job is a simple building -- a type III airplane hangar. Not a whole lot of electrical in there, 6 lights and 6 outlets per space, and a static discharge grounding loop in the floor. I don't believe that there will be any hazardous location devices, since the clearances will be sufficient.

Egress lighting?
Emergency Power?
Fire pump?
Fire Alarm?
Computer/telephone?
Underground/aboveground service requirements?

In our design/builds the facility is described in a document which spells out exactly what will be required. Did your RFP include this?

 

[charlie b]

I am looking at some plans and specs for a new building. In these specs, they specify that the electrical contractor will prepare a design and have it sealed by an engineer registered in the State of MD.

I sure hope you are not quoting the specs accurately. I would venture to bet the price of a beer that what you have described is a violation of the law in every state in the union. I consider it to also be a serious breach of professional ethics to even suggest that the contractor do what you have described.

If an engineer does not get involved in the design process until it is completed, if the engineer is handed a set of completed plans, then that engineer is forbidden, by law and by our code of ethics, to apply the PE seal, and to sign the plans. Period. End. No discussion.

The only thing a PE can do with a set of completed plans is to perform a review, write a report that describes the results of the review, and apply the seal and signature to the review report.

A PE seal is not, Not, NOT a certification that the plans are OK, that they meet code, or that the PE agrees with the design. A PE seal means one thing, and one thing only. It means, and I quote,

This work was done by me, or under my supervision.

In order to be able to make that assertion, the PE?s brain must be engaged in the design process well before the design work is completed.

 

[skeshesh]

I sure hope you are not quoting the specs accurately. I would venture to bet the price of a beer that what you have described is a violation of the law in every state in the union. I consider it to also be a serious breach of professional ethics to even suggest that the contractor do what you have described.

If an engineer does not get involved in the design process until it is completed, if the engineer is handed a set of completed plans, then that engineer is forbidden, by law and by our code of ethics, to apply the PE seal, and to sign the plans. Period. End. No discussion.

The only thing a PE can do with a set of completed plans is to perform a review, write a report that describes the results of the review, and apply the seal and signature to the review report.

A PE seal is not, Not, NOT a certification that the plans are OK, that they meet code, or that the PE agrees with the design. A PE seal means one thing, and one thing only. It means, and I quote, In order to be able to make that assertion, the PE?s brain must be engaged in the design process well before the design work is completed.

I agree with Charlie in general, but I have to add that I think there are cases where the scope of work is a factor as well. As an example I know about a case where a contractor that does regular maintenance work for a large company with multiple industrial facilities (and has been for years) wants to add a circuit breaker to a small indoor substation to add a new 400A distribution board. Contractor prepared a couple of sheets, the PE did a quick load summary using the information in the drawings+single line of the power distribution to conclude the addition was acceptable. I don't think the fact that the contractor drew up the plans is a breach of ethics or laws. Again, though, I think if it's anything but very minor maintenance level addition/modification the design process should be supervised by a licensed engineer per Charlie's comments.

 

[drbond24]

Charlie's post is very well written and 100% accurate. I had been thinking the same thing but was unable to write it down so well.

If the plans are already done, the most you are going to get from a PE is a letter saying the plans have been reviewed. There will also be paragraphs of legalese that effectively say 'if these plans end up burning the whole place down, don't call me because I never actually said they wouldn't.'

If you need a PE stamp, get a PE involved from the beginning. I live in West Virginia or I'd help you out.

 

[kbsparky]

...I sure hope you are not quoting the specs accurately....

That particular line was quoted from the specs, word for word!

I did talk with a couple of EE's today about this, and the gist of the responses I got mostly agreed with your assertions.

I could present some drawings for a seal, but the EE would actually have to re-do everything on his own terms, and would be given free reign to add or delete anything he wanted before stamping the final version. In other words, even though the basic design is already laid out, the EE would still have to draw it over again, as well as add in required details making a compliant installation -- at least on paper.

There is no formal "plans review or approval" in this jurisdiction, and since it is for a municipality, hence the engineer's stamp requirement.

I did find out today that the GC has retained a PE to cover the entire job, including the electrical plans, so at least for now, I'm off the hook

 

[kbsparky]

Egress lighting?
Emergency Power?

Just the dual-headed wall paks. And radioactive self-powered EXIT signs ...

Fire pump?
Fire Alarm?...

None. Building is small enough that no sprinklers are needed, and the type III hangar does not need any of this. They will have extinguishers placed, but that is beyond the scope of the electrical work.

...Computer/telephone?

Empty stub-out only.

Underground/aboveground service requirements?

None. They want the interior wiring only with an empty conduit stubbed out (and that is an alternate) with the stipulation that the town will install the metering/service/feeders at their own leisure and expense.

In our design/builds the facility is described in a document which spells out exactly what will be required. Did your RFP include this?

Yup. Just the interior wiring, devices, and fixtures. And that static ground loop.

 

[kbsparky]

In my state, if this is a 'public' building an engineer's seal is required.

You say, you don't "believe" some conditions exist, are you willing to bet you career on it?....

By placing a bid w/o the engineer's approved stamped plans, yes, I guess I am betting my career on it. Just about any job that we do in this profession is a bet on our career. This was one of my concerns from the get-go. I have to figure out what is needed for this job based on my knowledge of article 513 of the NEC, as well as NFPA 409 using the "napkin-drawn plans" provided by the town.

So, I figured that the main power conduit that is stubbed through the floor would have to be compliant with Class I Division I location as per section 513.8, and the provisions of article 501. Nothing else is within or near the floor, or near the clearances shown in exhibit 513.1. If the engineer's final version does not require this, then its gravy in my pocket. If he does require the seal-offs, then I am covered.

 

[petersonra]

Place I used to work did a fair amount of build and install type equipment.

A lot of localities required sealed plans for various things.

It was never all that hard to get the part that needed sealing done by a PE. And not real pricey.

Mostly we would send the PE a description of what we thought we wanted and he would fill in the details on a drawing and put his seal on it.

Some places wanted more stuff on the PE drawings than others did though, so we tried to work with a PE who had done work in that locality before.

 

[gadfly56]

Charlie's post is very well written and 100% accurate. I had been thinking the same thing but was unable to write it down so well.

If the plans are already done, the most you are going to get from a PE is a letter saying the plans have been reviewed. There will also be paragraphs of legalese that effectively say 'if these plans end up burning the whole place down, don't call me because I never actually said they wouldn't.'

If you need a PE stamp, get a PE involved from the beginning. I live in West Virginia or I'd help you out.

There can be a broad gray area when this issue comes up.

In my neck of the woods, we have customers who ask us to provide signed and sealed plans for wet chemical suppression systems. I take the info they provide and create the drawing. Straight forward, no problems.

Then we have other customers who want us to sign and seal fire alarm drawings for them. Does this breach my responsibility under the law? Well, no. How can I be sure? I called the PE ethics board, described the situation and our review process, and they said "Sounds good to us." On the other hand, the systems are simple and it's easy for me to check the code requirements and calculations. A thirty story high rise with voice evac, areas of refuge, smoke control, floor-above-floor-below alert and evac notification, fire fighters telephone, etcetera, not so much. Call me at the beginning, not the end.

 

[jghrist]

On a design/build job, the Contractor's engineer would develop and seal detailed plans, based on the general plans provided by the owner. The engineer would not seal the general plans provided by the owner; these would be sealed by the engineer that prepared them.

Unless the Contractor's engineer does at least a portion of the design before the bid, you run the risk of the detailed design being more expensive than what was assumed during bidding. You need to hire an engineer who understands that the final design should be as low initial cost as possible for the Contractor while maintaining safety and meeting minimum code and specification requirements. Engineers used to traditional separate design contracts may have a tendency to design for the best installation for the owner, which may not be the most economical in first cost.

 

[drbond24]

Then we have other customers who want us to sign and seal fire alarm drawings for them. Does this breach my responsibility under the law? Well, no. How can I be sure? I called the PE ethics board, described the situation and our review process, and they said "Sounds good to us." On the other hand, the systems are simple and it's easy for me to check the code requirements and calculations. A thirty story high rise with voice evac, areas of refuge, smoke control, floor-above-floor-below alert and evac notification, fire fighters telephone, etcetera, not so much. Call me at the beginning, not the end.

If your state's PE board is happy, I'm happy.

The West Virginia PE Laws, Rules, and Regulations state that: "The seal and signature shall be used by registrants only when the work being stamped was under the registrant's complete direction and control." That doesn't leave much of a gray area in my mind, but if I wasn't sure I'd do what you did and call them.